The Dressage - Brannaman nexus: Can we talk about particulars?

Sorry, way behind in responding to an earlier request, but MVP’s post reminded me that someone asked about how I set up a turn. I’m really struggling to describe exactly what I’m doing, but I can at least describe what I’m trying to do. I’ll try to be more internally observant when I head out tonight to ride, but I’ve been at a cinch making class for the last couple of nights so I haven’t ridden since the weekend.

First of all, whatever you do, you want to keep a firm goal in mind when you do it. There’s a place for experimenting to see what the result will be, but really we’re mostly accustoming our horses to whatever we want the aids to be. I only mention this because there’s often an element of “but I tried that and it didn’t work” that comes up in these discussions. Likewise, you’ll confuse the heck out of your horse if you do one thing one day and another the next, so at least have a clear plan in mind before heading off to ride.

On the rein side, I don’t turn with reins EVER if I can avoid it. I use the rein to suggest or correct bend, but that’s it. My rein aids for counterbending left are the same ones for bending right. Unless there’s a breakdown in imminent safety I also don’t use one rein completely on it’s own or use an opening rein, since most of the time I’m riding a hackamore or bridle bit. When I’m not, I try to ride the snaffle or sidepull in such a way as to not create what would be bad habits in the other gear.

If I need to get my horse to bend left I rein slightly up and to the right, or at most use a right post rein and lift the left one.

Even in a dressage lessons, I aim for no weight in the rein. In a snaffle there may be little SLACK in the rein, but a properly draped rein is NOT an empty rein. Equipment choice factors in (a heavy rein may be too tight to be “neutral” without slack in it), but you shouldn’t have so little feel in the rein as to be disconnected entirely.

I don’t resonate with outside leg back bending around your inside leg with a firm outside rein because it’s too much like drawing a bow, or going around blocking what you don’t want rather than setting up what you do. If I drop my leg back a little, it’s because I want my horse’s haunches in.

Likewise, while there’s an element of exaggeration required to teach a concept, I didn’t get along too well with the leg scissoring image because it’s a little too static. When I go to turn my own body, a gently curved line is differentiated from a straight one not from a static posture, but from the fact that my outside leg needs to travel farther than my inside one. As such, and since I endeavour to ride the hindquarters at all times, the image to keep in mind is to speed up the outside line of the body rather than to restrict it from going straight or counterbending. Sometimes that’s a matter of fluttering the outside leg to ask for more impulsion, but the bend has to be good for that to work well most times and the horse has to be thinking through the turn already. Otherwise, using an inside seatbone to ask the inside leg to step further under the body shadow will correct a horse driving out over an outside shoulder, or asking the outside hind to step up under the inside shoulder will stop an inside spiral. None of this requires a rein action, and if anything a restricting rein only gives the horse something to brace against.

While I will on occasion use an outside leg forward during a forward-moving line, I agree with Bryan Neubert when he says it tends to encourage a rearward thinking spin-type movement. It’s basically the leg equivalent of a blocking outside rein…ie punishing what you don’t want rather than asking for more of what you do. A matter of intent, I guess, but unless you’re starting a spin from the backup it doesn’t really feel like a positive aid.

If I feel my horse driving over my outside leg and I can’t correct it from my seat, then I might bump him on the outside shoulder a little (or the inside shoulder if he’s falling in). That’s what I meant by feeling like he’s trying to go straight when I’m positioned to turn…you can feel some part of the horse’s body pushing on yours.

On the subject of a restricting rein, I’m really moving away from much notion of connecting to a brace and waiting for it to soften. This is a notion that Bruce Sandifer planted, and it’s replacement is to keep repeatedly lifting and releasing the rein until the horse gives. The horse never gets anything to hang on, so the seem more inclined to soften quicker.

Likwise, he has no issue with leaning forward over the saddle horn if a horse is dumping onto the forehand, jiggling the rein, and asking the horse to come up WITH him as he “corrects” his posture. Still playing with that one, but it’s been rattling around up there for a while for me. I asked him if he thinks that’s making the horse’s job harder at first by placing his weight over the already heavy forehand, but he’s said he doesn’t see it that way. Posture fanatics would be best to avoid that one!

On the backup side, I’ve moved away from the notion of sitting up or learning back to back, and moved back to the more dressagy notion of leaning forward slightly and rolling my thighs forward a little to open up the door to backing. I’ve already spoken of tweaks Marting makes to free up the backup too.

If we’re talking ‘Brannaman Dressage Nexus’, my opinion is that more than a little bit of what Adam talks about would be (politely) disagreed with by Buck.

Ask-and-release before the horse releases a brace? Instead of engaging a brace…
Well, I really like the concept of not engaging a horse’s brace, but rather directing him elsewhere to sort of release it before it happens.
If you are talking about releasing pressure, before the brace engages, but after the horse brings a thought, a ‘smallest change’ , a ‘slightest try’, in the direction you’re going, OK. That in my opinion is the path to lightness.

But if you release anywhere before the horse gives something, somewhere, somehow, you are teaching the horse exactly the opposite- that the reins/bit don’t consistently mean anything.

Buck also talked about a bridle horse progression, and said that when his horse is really confirmed in the bridle, and he was to go, say, foxhunting…where a snaffle would be more appropriate with the possibility of being unbalanced or unseated while jumping (speaking of a more novice rider over fences, here, not the MFH who might appropriately be in a double bridle)…his horses would go right into the snaffle and nothing at all would change (the horse’s response to the bit, or the rider’s use of the bit) from how it was when the horse last wore the snaffle.

I have never, ever heard of Buck (or Bryan Neubert) talking about a ‘post hand’, and that they will take a horse in two reins to make SURE the opening rein is working properly simply emphasizes to me that the opening rein is one of the most important basics to have working.
Nor do they teach against an indirect rein.
But if the opening rein does not get you a deep bend, with the hindquarters untracking and the weight of the horse on the outside legs, Buck and Bryan both will go right to getting that working, in the clinics I’ve been to.

I’m not saying, oh Aktill, you’re wrong!! by any means, that’s just a different way of approaching the vaquero/bosal/spade bit thing. But I don’t like a horse that won’t bend deeply, untrack the HQ, weight his outside legs. And I don’t see this in my videos of Bruce Sandifer. His horses have a nice sort of ‘upright’ bend response, to an indirect rein. OK. But I think this is at the expense of something basic…that I’m probably not far enough along to define completely.

And Pocket, you really bring up something at the very heart of all this: that little voice, telling you maybe you don’t like that trainer. Having the horse perform the ‘right’ moves, using its body correctly, is something more than just a few people can get working for them. Getting it working while the horse is mentally connected, a partner, helping you and filling in for you…that’s the heart and soul of the matter.

And that’s why I’d say riding in a Buck clinic can be a magical experience. He really does take riders from really inexperienced, to world-class, in the SAME class, and get that turned-loose connection going between horse and rider. Not every person will get there in any given clinic, but it doesn’t seem to be dependent on the rider’s existing skills that it happens.

This thread has brought me out of lurkdom because there are so many good contributions that my fingers were beginning to itch.

About the opening/leading rein, well, it is not about pulling on the rein, it is about the horse following a rein/hand and thus following your feel. You start out simple with hands separated (this is why good colt starters start their horses in a halter and one lead, they want to keep it simple for the rider and simple for the horse to understand and to protect the horse from building a brace, this concept is carried on with riding with a one leading rein in the early stages) but then, when the horse can follow your energy/feel and you have some good communication going, you can ride with your hands more together. Visual Classical example is the chief riding master heading the quadrille at the Spanish riding School riding with reins in one hand and whip straight up in the other. Afterall, if your goal is to progress to the hackamore and eventually to the spade, riding with a feel and the horse responding to your feel/energy, then your goal is to ride one handed. Besides, the horse will be better to follow your body when your hands are close together or better…one handed. There is an exercise that you can try this out with where the person in front of you pretends to be the horse and you pretend to be the rider.

I have to agree with Bluey on the spade for the simple reason that I would say there are only about a dozen people in this country that truely know how to use a spade while doing work without bringing it into play. It WILL hit the roof of the horses mouth if the “feel” working both ways is not there. It is a signal bit…SIGNAL ! Not to be used by taking the slack out of the rein or the port will hit the roof of the mouth…a complete no no. but what do we see? Everyone wants to make a bridle horse and goes out and buys a spade without the knowledge or tact to be able to use it according to the horses approval. “Look at ME, I`m a horseman, I have a spade on my horse.” Nope Nope Nope…a spade is not a horseman.

After practicing the riding the haute ecole for 50+ years I can say that it is easier to make a high school horse than it is a bridle horse and one of the reasons is, a spade can be a razor in a monkeys hand plus, the horse is a using horse without predictable movements being asked of it. When riding in the menage things are more under control and predictable.

If when you get to riding with the double bridle and the spade, you will feel the rein going through the body even if you are not riding with any contact…the loin softens. It would be cruel to ask a dressage horse to always be ridden for hours in the “on” position and this tells me that a good horseman does not ride his bridle horse in the “on” position either because what horse could stand that without eventually protesting in some way and trying to protect itself…antithesis to the philosophy of riding a supple horse.

A couple other thoughts…Slobber straps are your half halt, a signal, first step to using a signal bit. The horse feels you pick up that rein so much finer than with just leather reins and no slobber strap. The rope rein also has a nice weight to it if you have good ones which will help you out too.

About riding with your inside leg back on a turn…I didnt understand this either coming from a dressage backround until I sent a colt off to be started by one of Bucks assistance. Darn it if the first corner I went into, the horse that had only been backed for two months melted her body into the arch of the corner without me even asking for it. I was from then on a believer. If you ever get to a Joe Wolter clinic he talks about this alot plus he rides almost everyones horses at a clinic to demonstrate. LOVELY horseman. Riding with your inside leg back and your outside leg forward is a carry over to what we did with the groundwork with “untracking” If your horse already negotiates the turn with a curve in its spine and carrying itself, then you dont have to worry about losing the hindquarters and putting your outside leg to keep it from swinging out. Wth the horses attention to the inside because you ever so slightly move you inside leg, the curve is already in the horse.

Oh, and one more thing. I wish people would not think that riding in the snaffle or hackamore is not good horsemanship. Remember Ray Hunt saying.“You never leave square one, you take it with you.”

Riding Zero to One with finese is still the most important and takes a lifetime or more to get good at. Most of us have plenty to keep us busy without buying a spade bit.

Thanks for joining in, re-runs!

[QUOTE=froglander;7241803]
I just want to say again how happy I am to have stumbled upon this thread, how useful it has been, and how glad I am to have found some like-minded individuals :slight_smile: Maybe I’m not as crazy as I thought I was…[/QUOTE]

Are you familiar with this trainer?

Just off the press from Dressage Today’s ads, this about a book on this thread’s subject:

—"Bringing It Together

Whatever our riding style, we all want a soft, balanced, willing equine partner.

Bringing It Together by Grand Prix dressage rider Ellen Eckstein, describes her step by step training system that blends the techniques and philosophy of the iconic horseman Tom Dorrance with those of classical dressage masters. Devotees of all riding disciplines will find the understanding and tools to craft rides that feel right in a way best for your horses.

Ellen shares the connection between dressage and natural horsemanship that she has learned and experienced after training under some of dressage’s most respected figures and working for 30 years with Tom Dorrance."—

I have that book :slight_smile: Sadly I have misplaced the dvd that came with it :frowning:

And the book just left some questions, so this thread has been very helpful :slight_smile:

[QUOTE=Bluey;7242043]
Are you familiar with this trainer?

Just off the press from Dressage Today’s ads, this about a book on this thread’s subject:

—"Bringing It Together

Whatever our riding style, we all want a soft, balanced, willing equine partner.

Bringing It Together by Grand Prix dressage rider Ellen Eckstein, describes her step by step training system that blends the techniques and philosophy of the iconic horseman Tom Dorrance with those of classical dressage masters. Devotees of all riding disciplines will find the understanding and tools to craft rides that feel right in a way best for your horses.

Ellen shares the connection between dressage and natural horsemanship that she has learned and experienced after training under some of dressage’s most respected figures and working for 30 years with Tom Dorrance."—[/QUOTE]

Not sure why only Ellen Eckstein was mentioned in that quote- she wrote that book/made the DVD in collaboration with Betty Staley.

Definitely not claiming that anything I wrote represents what Buck teaches, by any stretch. Just answering what I remember to be an earlier question.

On the equipment side, I did want to point out a couple of things that have been spoken about before but which are relevant here simply because they’re mechanical.

First, hang a hang a hackamore on a tack cleaning hook and pull on one rein only. It will bring the heel knot out of the center on the same side as the request…ergo, tipping the nose and counter bending the poll. That’s not me, or Bruce, or Richard…that’s mechanics. All a post hand does is prevent it from happening.

Second, I’d love to get a quick poll of all those who have commented on spade bits here AND have actually ridden one for a solid period of time. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I’d love to know how many are backing that with personal experience. I am…coming up on two years I think. Not claiming perfection BUT I have real issues with the comments about “razor blades in the hands of a monkey” and “forcing the horse to adopt a posture”. I may be the only one who cares though, so unless there are those who want to learn or discuss rather than just having a debate contest, I’ll keep them to myself. To use a Buckism, the best way to learn where your holes are is to advance to the next step.

[QUOTE=aktill;7242138]
Definitely not claiming that anything I wrote represents what Buck teaches, by any stretch. Just answering what I remember to be an earlier question.

On the equipment side, I did want to point out a couple of things that have been spoken about before but which are relevant here simply because they’re mechanical.

First, hang a hang a hackamore on a tack cleaning hook and pull on one rein only. It will bring the heel knot out of the center on the same side as the request…ergo, tipping the nose and counter bending the poll. That’s not me, or Bruce, or Richard…that’s mechanics. All a post hand does is prevent it from happening.

Second, I’d love to get a quick poll of all those who have commented on spade bits here AND have actually ridden one for a solid period of time. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I’d love to know how many are backing that with personal experience. I am…coming up on two years I think. Not claiming perfection BUT I have real issues with the comments about “razor blades in the hands of a monkey” and “forcing the horse to adopt a posture”. I may be the only one who cares though, so unless there are those who want to learn or discuss rather than just having a debate contest, I’ll keep them to myself. To use a Buckism, the best way to learn where your holes are is to advance to the next step.[/QUOTE]

Easy, hold a bridle with a snaffle by the cheeckpieces in one hand, the snaffle with your other hand, grabbing it from above, fingers closed around it and imagine that is the horse’s mouth.
Have someone handle the reins from behind you and feel how the snaffle moves in your hand and what you can get out of that, if you were a horse, by what that snaffle does.

Now do the same with a grazing curb, then with a spade bit or any other bit you are interested in seeing how it works when sitting in there or reins acting on it.

That would help you feel the differences in how each bit is moving in the horse’s mouth.

The physics of it are very similar in your hand as in the horse’s mouth.

There have been articles showing x-rays of horse’s heads with different bits just hanging there and with someone working the reins to ask the horse something, with different bits and those were very interesting.

Show me a picture of a horse holding any bit other than a spade without a headstall attached.

Curb and snaffle bits move independently of how a horse might like them to because they can’t be supported.

First, hang a hang a hackamore on a tack cleaning hook and pull on one rein only. It will bring the heel knot out of the center on the same side as the request…ergo, tipping the nose and counter bending the poll. That’s not me, or Bruce, or Richard…that’s mechanics. All a post hand does is prevent it from happening.

I want my horse, 100% of the time, to follow the feel of my rein hand and bend his ribcage, untrack his hind legs, in an opening rein, without contact with the snaffle bit…following the feel and direction of the rein, before I even get to the bosal.
I have ridden my horse in the bosal for two or three rides, where there wouldn’t be much fast/cow work. The first time, I couldn’t keep him straight. A year later, I tried again. When I picked up the inside rein/rein hand in an opening rein, he just went with me, with his whole body.

I don’t plan on continuing much in the bosal until I have what Buck asks of a horse going into the bosal…haunches-in good, walk/canter transitions consistent, branding, filling in for a novice rider. I won’t get to doctoring calves outside, I don’t HAVE those skills yet but my horse will sure enough watch a cow and work her himself. Gallop in the pasture and get one cow in heat, in to breed, that’ll be a little while yet in a bosal. We are not quite there in the snaffle yet. We can get the cow in, sure, but it ain’t pretty yet.

But I won’t be pulling on the bosal rein except in a clustermess, so I don’t expect at all to be turning it on his face. And yes, he is already fluent with indirect inside rein as well as opening inside rein.

It will be four years next summer since my first Buck clinic I aspire to showing up next summer at the Buck clinic in my bosal on this horse. I won’t show up ‘dressed’ in it unless I honestly expect NOT to be sent back to the tack room for a snaffle bit.

I do aspire to the spade, in fact I just got a Tietjen/Ernie Marsh spade. It is stainless steel, not silver, and so cost quite a bit less than most spade bits but Ernie Marsh made the mouthpiece by hand on top of the Tietjen molds. But it will be another year or two before I expect to have a two-rein going on that horse.

And I have two that will hold a plain snaffle without headstall. One has an issue, so that isn’t really fair, but sometimes I have to tell my (non-issue) horse to open his mouth and let the bit go now, I have the headstall off…he’s that comfortable and happy with it. I think most of the ‘hold it without the headstall’ has to do with putting it in the horse’s mouth in the first place, a snaffle bit needs something to position it properly so the horse will take hold of it.

“Second, I’d love to get a quick poll of all those who have commented on spade bits here AND have actually ridden one for a solid period of time. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I’d love to know how many are backing that with personal experience. I am…coming up on two years I think. Not claiming perfection BUT I have real issues with the comments about “razor blades in the hands of a monkey” and “forcing the horse to adopt a posture”. I may be the only one who cares though, so unless there are those who want to learn or discuss rather than just having a debate contest, I’ll keep them to myself. To use a Buckism, the best way to learn where your holes are is to advance to the next step”

Oh gosh Aktill, my comment about the “razor in a monkeys hand” was not pointed at you. I have enjoyed your input on both this forum and Dr. Debs. I have little doubt that you are a serious horseman from the pictures that you have posted of yourself and your written posts. For someone like you, perhaps pursuing the riding of your horse in a spade is a reasonable adventure. For some, it is not. I cringe.

Personally I have ridden horses 'start to finish"; that means first ride through GP and I think I know how it feels to graduate one up to be able to comfortably carry a double bridle. One of my adventures was, I used to show Arabians and Quarter horses and the fashions at the time was to ride “california style” in the spade. Now that doesn`t put me in the same class with a buckaroo horseman since for one, it was arena riding and not working cattle but, I know what it feels like to ride a horse in a spade and that means “carefully” or “handle with care”. I had already had a backround in dressage (baucherist) when I was doing this so I could compare the use of the curb and the use of the spade. All this does not make me an expert but…I feel I have to explain that I DO have some experience to make some valid points.

My comments meant that the spade should be ridden by people who do not have to touch the bit for any kind of control. To me the spade is a trophy, something earned at the end of the journey, not in the middle. I see people also abusing the hackamore, always riding with two hands and using it with less finese than they would with a snaffle. To me, the hackamore is also a signal device because if it used heavily with two hands for long, the horse will learn just how inept the rider is at controlling them with force. “They know when you know” rings in my ears when I see this. If a horse is following a feel in the snaffle, how difficult can it be to ride them following a feel in a hackamore? IF…and that is the key word…IF…they have been properly prepared starting way back with the groundwork establishing a trusting relationship and a foundation for communication. But that is not what I mostly see.

“Second, I’d love to get a quick poll of all those who have commented on spade bits here AND have actually ridden one for a solid period of time. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I’d love to know how many are backing that with personal experience. I am…coming up on two years I think. Not claiming perfection BUT I have real issues with the comments about “razor blades in the hands of a monkey” and “forcing the horse to adopt a posture”. I may be the only one who cares though, so unless there are those who want to learn or discuss rather than just having a debate contest, I’ll keep them to myself. To use a Buckism, the best way to learn where your holes are is to advance to the next step”

Oh gosh Aktill, my comment about the “razor in a monkeys hand” was not pointed at you. I have enjoyed your input on both this forum and Dr. Debs. I have little doubt that you are a serious horseman from the pictures that you have posted of yourself and your written posts. For someone like you, perhaps pursuing the riding of your horse in a spade is a reasonable adventure. For some, it is not. I cringe.

Personally I have ridden horses 'start to finish"; that means first ride through GP and I think I know how it feels to graduate one up to be able to comfortably carry a double bridle. One of my adventures was, I used to show Arabians and Quarter horses and the fashions at the time was to ride “california style” in the spade. Now that doesn`t put me in the same class with a buckaroo horseman since for one, it was arena riding and not working cattle but, I know what it feels like to ride a horse in a spade and that means “carefully” or “handle with care”. I had already had a backround in dressage (baucherist) when I was doing this so I could compare the use of the curb and the use of the spade. All this does not make me an expert but…I feel I have to explain that I DO have some experience to make some valid points.

My comments meant that the spade should be ridden by people who do not have to touch the bit for any kind of control. To me the spade is a trophy, something earned at the end of the journey, not in the middle. I see people also abusing the hackamore, always riding with two hands and using it with less finese than they would with a snaffle. To me, the hackamore is also a signal device because if it used heavily with two hands for long, the horse will learn just how inept the rider is at controlling them with force. “They know when you know” rings in my ears when I see this. If a horse is following a feel in the snaffle, how difficult can it be to ride them following a feel in a hackamore? IF…and that is the key word…IF…they have been properly prepared starting way back with the groundwork establishing a trusting relationship and a foundation for communication. But that is not what I mostly see.

I guess the point that I am trying to make is…it ain`t about the equipment as much as it is the foundation and the communication. If the foundation is right and the feel and energy is right then the equipment does not become an issue…for the horse that is. Not many are asking him how he feels about it. We too often just ask them to tolerate it and our egos.

That’s it, I’m kissing re-runs smack on the lips.

I haven’t gotten through all the posts but weighing in briefly on a couple of thoughts. First, the original premise of this thread- I’ve been fortunate to have sessions with many great horsemen over the years, and am also a fan of Buck’s, have not attended one of his clinics yet but have done a couple with one of his ‘disciples.’

Someone- DLee maybe- hit on where I’m at in general. It’s about the journey. I am just an amateur, but have to say I don’t necessarily agree with 100% of what ‘anyone,’ including Buck, teaches. It doesn’t mean I don’t learn a whole lot of new and useful information. Part of the fun of playing with horses is they can, and do, learn different cues, different ways of achieving desired results, they are quite flexible- you want to cue for your canter departure with inside leg or outside leg, they don’t care, once they understand what you want, they’ll cheerfully do it. So I don’t think we should get too caught up in the 100% literal translation and application of everything that’s taught as a do or die edict. I for sure don’t get caught up in ‘the right’ rein- I personally prefer the skinny leather split reins when riding western, it’s what I grew up using and works for me and for the horses. There could be a difference using bigger reins w/slobber straps, don’t know, haven’t had a yearning to try but might some time out of curiosity, not out of necessity, I’ve never had an issue relating to the type of reins I’m using.

Across all the disciplines, I think there are far more similarities than differences, though they might be explained or taught differently. A leading rein is a fundamental building block in dressage as taught to me by a Cadre Noir instructor.

Heck, I haven’t read Xenophon for a few years, must do that again soon, but really he nailed a couple of thousand years ago what Buck and others are teaching today.

Good thread, thanks for all the thoughtful explanation.

[QUOTE=Beverley;7242483]
I haven’t gotten through all the posts but weighing in briefly on a couple of thoughts. First, the original premise of this thread- I’ve been fortunate to have sessions with many great horsemen over the years, and am also a fan of Buck’s, have not attended one of his clinics yet but have done a couple with one of his ‘disciples.’

Someone- DLee maybe- hit on where I’m at in general. It’s about the journey. I am just an amateur, but have to say I don’t necessarily agree with 100% of what ‘anyone,’ including Buck, teaches. It doesn’t mean I don’t learn a whole lot of new and useful information. Part of the fun of playing with horses is they can, and do, learn different cues, different ways of achieving desired results, they are quite flexible- you want to cue for your canter departure with inside leg or outside leg, they don’t care, once they understand what you want, they’ll cheerfully do it. So I don’t think we should get too caught up in the 100% literal translation and application of everything that’s taught as a do or die edict. I for sure don’t get caught up in ‘the right’ rein- I personally prefer the skinny leather split reins when riding western, it’s what I grew up using and works for me and for the horses. There could be a difference using bigger reins w/slobber straps, don’t know, haven’t had a yearning to try but might some time out of curiosity, not out of necessity, I’ve never had an issue relating to the type of reins I’m using.

Across all the disciplines, I think there are far more similarities than differences, though they might be explained or taught differently. A leading rein is a fundamental building block in dressage as taught to me by a Cadre Noir instructor.

Heck, I haven’t read Xenophon for a few years, must do that again soon, but really he nailed a couple of thousand years ago what Buck and others are teaching today.[/QUOTE]

Bringing perspective to any topic always helps, thanks.:slight_smile:

I would like to join katarine in her online internet smooch gesture to re-runs.

I’ve also been thinking all night about the bosal twisting on the horse’s face.
Yes, it can, if you take hold of it hard enough.

But I would think if I have to take a hold of it that hard, I really need to be in a snaffle or a halter. And perhaps with a nice-tempered, well started horse, you never WOULD have to take hold of them that hard, but if you are riding previously messed-up horses or real spitfires, you’re going to have to know how to get a hold of them to shut them down. That’s exactly why the snaffle should have a hobble strap, so the bit doesn’t pull right through their mouth when you do take a real hold on one side, in the middle of a storm.

There’s a not-much used quote of Ray Hunts, that someone I respect a LOT, gave me, about using the snaffle in a way that gets the bracy, rude or runaway horse’s attention- “It’s like you have little spurs in there” (in the horse’s mouth, via the smooth snaffle bit). Or some such, paraphrased.

I think the halter will absolutely twist on the horse’s face, yet I can get my horse giving, ‘jaw-tucking’, laterally at the poll in a halter. Pulling on the snaffle rein, in a brace, can pull a horse’s nose out-of-plumb, but knowing how to get the horse to release that braced poll gets that lateral bend working properly.

And once I have the groundwork consistent, I can do it off my mecate rein. To the left, where the mecate rein is pulling on the LEFT snaffle ring if it pulls. If it’s a big mess and the horse is confused, I have to go back to groundwork in the halter.

Anyway, before the bosal the horse should know what the bit means, and you would be out of all but the most occasional storms, not having to get a hold of the horse HARD with the bit. Or the halter, or I’ve seen Buck go right past the halter and loop a lass rope in a way that really can bite, with a really messed-up, ruined, aggressive horse.

I was told that before I go into the bosal, my horse should be absolutely butter soft in a halter, consistently. That ‘bigger’ diameter bosal has a bit of weight, so that if I get in a pickle I can meet the horse with a BUMP on the end of the rein. I shouldn’t have storms by this time that I’m going to have to get short, fast, laterally, so I shouldn’t be pulling the bosal crooked on his face.
In the bridle horse progression, you have a smaller and smaller bosal (because you don’t need as ‘big’ a bump on the end of the reins, but you still need it occasionally and you still need its lateral communication). You can’t ‘bump’ the horse with a curb bit. And by ‘bump’, I mean you meet the HORSE at the end of his own gesture, so HE basically ‘bumps’ himself (and more important, THINKS he ran into that bump himself), not ever whacking the horse from nowhere.

There could be a difference using bigger reins w/slobber straps, don’t know, haven’t had a yearning to try but might some time out of curiosity, not out of necessity, I’ve never had an issue relating to the type of reins I’m using.

Beverly, if you try it, get a GOOD quality yacht braid mecate, some plain leather slobber straps. Freckers has good tree-line mecates. And give it two or three weeks. The differences can be subtle, it can be a while before your muscle-memory can register a difference.

Going back to the spade bit discussion, I’m currently watching Martin Black’s video on the two-rein. He’s got a cute bay roan as his demo horse and when he was demonstrating how to un-bridle with a spade bit, he took the headstall off the ears, and the horse wouldn’t let go of the bit - there was nothing holding it up in his mouth except his mouth itself.

One thing I don’t like about this video is his suggestion of tying up the bridle reins so there’s “contact” and then leaving the horse that way for 15-20 minutes (with the suggestion of working up to an hour) so that the horse can “develop the muscles” and “relax at the poll” and learn about the cricket of the bit and whatnot.

Adam, have you worked with him directly? Is that something he’s suggested to you? Did you go through a process like that? It would seem dangerous to me to have the romal and bridle reins looped around the horn such that your hands were not in control of them 100% of the time and that they were short enough to have “contact” such that there was no slack in the rein. There was no ground work demonstrated where he showed an ask and release.

And I have another question/comment, but maybe it is for a separate thread? It is something I’ve often wondered about in english riding as well, so I’m not focusing this only on western work.

Anyone care to discuss the bridle horse vs. the bridle horse rider? What I mean by that is the level of the rider’s training vs. the level of the horse’s. Along the lines of what re-runs posted, with not many people truly being at the level of riding a horse in the bridle. I’ve seen riders on horses who are straight up in the bridle, but the rider clearly is not a “bridle horse rider.” I see less of this in the english world, just because I think fewer people would give a double bridle a shot out of the blue, but I do see people over-mounted, which is somewhat similar. Are there trainers who teach regular lessons (vs. clinics) on making a bridle horse or riding a bridle horse? I mean, it seems like a lot of this work is steeped in tradition and handing down knowledge in a somewhat hard-to-find way for the regular person who is keen to learn. Is there a “mecca” for this type of training? (Like dressage, where maybe you’d want to be in SoCal or Florida.)