The Dressage - Brannaman nexus: Can we talk about particulars?

[Fillabeana]

Yeah, so all this yabber,

the bottom line is that I am NOT willing to give up the opening rein in a bosal.

Buck uses it, Bryan uses it, pretty sure Martin Black does but not positive. I’ll check my A-Pen DVD and look for it.

While I do agree that PULLING the horse around in a bosal will twist the bosal on his face, that fact does not ‘compute’- it does not equal twisting the horse’s poll, because the halter and the snaffle bit can ‘create’ the same tilt…and even when using the snaffle rein on the OPPOSITE side of the ‘opening rein’ (using the mecate rein, going in a circle right, from the ground) you can get the proper response, the release of brace in ribcage, loin, and poll, the giving and proper posture.

And thaaaannnk yew everyone for tolerating my typed-out rant. It is more for my own benefit than anyone else’s, since writing it out really gets me thinking through to why my ‘gut feeling’ answer makes logical sense.

[Beverley]

Thanks for the tip Fillabeana (and I am with you on opening rein in a bosal).

Corollary to my prior post- the one nugget of truth from Dorrance/Hunt and disciples that I really do keep in mind, is the focus on controlling the feet. I find that the drills on being aware of which foot is moving vastly improves my soft use of seat, legs, hands in that order. And there are lots of variations on that drill- including riding the geometric design of one’s choice and looking ahead, as in approaching a jump, to decide the exact spot where you want any particular foot- say right front or left front- to touch the ground. I sense the horses enjoy it too, because you aren’t overthinking your aids, you are riding with a ‘job’ to do and it’s a scenario where the horse can really get into the team effort. Parenthetical observation- horses that are partners in getting a job done- whether working cattle or foxhunting or some such- really do open up and develop in a good way- people I know who have gotten their western and english show horses out to do things like that have been astounded at their subsequent improvement back in the ring. In the ring (well, and outside too, often enough) we all tend to micromanage what the horse is doing, to the ultimate misery and detriment of both horse and rider.

Controlling the feet starts with basic round pen and ground work, of course. The horse world would be a far better place IMO if every single horse on the planet had their individual front and rear legs roped in a round pen setting so they learn to stop and yield to that direct leg pressure (I prefer to use a long soft cotton rope, not being anywhere near the roper Buck is, and I do become horrified when I see newbie clinic attendees trying to rope their horses legs with a lariat in a round pen, because rope-burning a horse due to lack of expertise is a bad, bad thing). Two good things- First, just like direct versus indirect reins when riding, direct leg pressure on the ground carries forward to indirect leg pressure via rider cues in my experience. Second, and equally valuable, is that horses with that experience (who then go on to learn life with hobbles) don’t panic and injure themselves when a leg is caught in something, wire in particular, and just generally are calmer and more comfortable with leading, tying, and such.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7242993]
Yeah, so all this yabber,

the bottom line is that I am NOT willing to give up the opening rein in a bosal.

Buck uses it, Bryan uses it, pretty sure Martin Black does but not positive. I’ll check my A-Pen DVD and look for it.

While I do agree that PULLING the horse around in a bosal will twist the bosal on his face, that fact does not ‘compute’- it does not equal twisting the horse’s poll, because the halter and the snaffle bit can ‘create’ the same tilt…and even when using the snaffle rein on the OPPOSITE side of the ‘opening rein’ (using the mecate rein, going in a circle right, from the ground) you can get the proper response, the release of brace in ribcage, loin, and poll, the giving and proper posture.

And thaaaannnk yew everyone for tolerating my typed-out rant. It is more for my own benefit than anyone else’s, since writing it out really gets me thinking through to why my ‘gut feeling’ answer makes logical sense.[/QUOTE]

One reason that works is because the horses are listening to all of you, not just what is in their faces and what the reins tell them.
As horses learn to communicate with us, they learn what to listen to, what to ignore and when.

Some extreme examples, I have seen plenty of cowboys roping out in the pasture with one rein way longer than the other, hauling on them, horses with their heads and nose partly sideways and still knowing to rate that steer and staying where the roper has the right shot, no matter where the reins are trying to pull their heads to.

Watch this interesting video, how the horses are working with all kinds of headgear and where they are showing resistances and why and all that stuff you can learn, educating your eye on how all kinds of gear works in real life, on real horses, with real riders, not always as the pictures we make in our minds reading about it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hbyo0Tk2CYE

[mvp]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7242914]

I’ve also been thinking all night about the bosal twisting on the horse’s face.
Yes, it can, if you take hold of it hard enough.[/QUOTE]

I did read the rest of your post, F-bean.

I have not made a snaffle horse (yet) that I’d put into a bosal. I have, however, been run away with (bad) by a SOB not ready for a bosal who was put in one (for fox hunting, no less).

So when you experienced vaquero practitioners here said that the bosal was a signal device and the only way to use that was with bumps and letting go, I believed you.

So why ever talk about twisting a horse’s head with a bosal? That should never be your intention or experience… because the horse should be too uber-broke by then and because you shouldn’t ever hold on to a rein that long. That’s just not how this contrast device works.

Oh, and I don’t think twisting a horse’s head (really, his atlas) on its axis should be something a horseman wants.
You see this happen a lot. IMO, its because of ignorant riding and neck arthritis being more common in horses than we think.

To me, the reason to always want to keep the horse’s ears on top (something Brannaman emphasized and made me think about recently) is because the neck isn’t what you care about. You care about the neck (the base, the poll and even the jaw) only because the horse the whole neck/head section of his body to counter-balance what’s going on from the shoulder back.

We get all into manipulating the head and neck because our species is most dextrous in our hands and because if you influence how the horse uses the part of his body needed to balance as he moves, you indirectly get him to use the other part (shoulders and abs and butt) the way you’d like.

So pick whatever face equipment, technique and signal works for you, but remember that none of it matters unless you get a change in the horse from the shoulders back, not the shoulders up.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Beverley;7243038]
Thanks for the tip Fillabeana (and I am with you on opening rein in a bosal).

Corollary to my prior post- the one nugget of truth from Dorrance/Hunt and disciples that I really do keep in mind, is the focus on controlling the feet. I find that the drills on being aware of which foot is moving vastly improves my soft use of seat, legs, hands in that order. And there are lots of variations on that drill- including riding the geometric design of one’s choice and looking ahead, as in approaching a jump, to decide the exact spot where you want any particular foot- say right front or left front- to touch the ground. I sense the horses enjoy it too, because you aren’t overthinking your aids, you are riding with a ‘job’ to do and it’s a scenario where the horse can really get into the team effort. Parenthetical observation- horses that are partners in getting a job done- whether working cattle or foxhunting or some such- really do open up and develop in a good way- people I know who have gotten their western and english show horses out to do things like that have been astounded at their subsequent improvement back in the ring. In the ring (well, and outside too, often enough) we all tend to micromanage what the horse is doing, to the ultimate misery and detriment of both horse and rider.

Controlling the feet starts with basic round pen and ground work, of course. The horse world would be a far better place IMO if every single horse on the planet had their individual front and rear legs roped in a round pen setting so they learn to stop and yield to that direct leg pressure (I prefer to use a long soft cotton rope, not being anywhere near the roper Buck is, and I do become horrified when I see newbie clinic attendees trying to rope their horses legs with a lariat in a round pen, because rope-burning a horse due to lack of expertise is a bad, bad thing). Two good things- First, just like direct versus indirect reins when riding, direct leg pressure on the ground carries forward to indirect leg pressure via rider cues in my experience. Second, and equally valuable, is that horses with that experience (who then go on to learn life with hobbles) don’t panic and injure themselves when a leg is caught in something, wire in particular, and just generally are calmer and more comfortable with leading, tying, and such.[/QUOTE]

When starting horses in Europe, over half a century ago, part of ground work was wrapping a soft cotton rope around each leg and teaching horses to give to that, all in a way you never created resistance, but explained to the horse, that had learned all along without fight to try to figure what you were asking, what to do, even such strange things.

Worked especially well with the feral horses we started, made them very quiet to work around them.

I have seen NH type trainers do that but bring the fight out on the horse, that first fights the rope, kicking and pulling away, then finally settles.

I think a good trainer can do anything without first having the horse fight you, at least that makes more sense to me.

[aktill]

Just have a few minutes, but Pocket, what you’re describing is called checking up a horse. It a very small step with a new horse to give them time to find balance with the bit without the influence of the rider.

Other than the safety issue it’s a little controversial only because the rein is static, and most argue that it teaches the horse to back off the bit rather than to adjust to it, since a static rein can’t give.

I never bothered with the step. I started out just hanging the bit on my horse when I was grooming him, but he never really settled when doing so. In the end I just tacked up and rode toe rein off the bosalita alone, for the first month or so not even touching the rein. He settled on the first ride (meaning didn’t mouth the cricket constantly).

My thought was that being in the stall didn’t cause him to look to picking up the bit as even an option, and it was just rattling around loose. That wasn’t comfortable when he was moving, and after he figured out how to hold the bit, he was fine. Now even when standing tacked in the grooming stall, he doesn’t maniacally roll the bit.

[aktill]

I’ve made this point before, but since it seems relevant here again I wanted to comment on the bosal being a progression from the snaffle. It’s not really…the advantage of the bosal (as an evolution of the classical riding cavesson) is to stay out of a young horse’s mouth until it has a full mouth. Before that it’s often very sore!

Additionally, while the ham handed amongst us could sore up a horse pretty easily with a sharp or stiff bosal, a snaffle is BY FAR harsher than a bosal (or a spade, I’d very readily argue). The surface area available on a snaffle is tiny! Talk to a dentist and ask them how many mouths the see torn up by curbs or spades compared to “gentle” snaffles, or try placing them in the crook or your arm and giving the reins a tug.

I asked Buck why he promotes starting in a snaffle and moving onto a hackamore later and he said it’s because he doesn’t like to lose time at the two rein phase with a horse that has to get used to carrying a bit. It’s not because a snaffle makes a better start than a hackamore.

In fact, given that the rider has less ability to force a horse to do something in a hackamore than in a snaffle it forces more horsemanship into the bargain. A considerate rider has little to be afraid of by choosing to even start a horse in a hackamore.

[aktill]

Btw re-runs, I’ve untwisted my knickers since yesterday and wanted to say sorry if I came across as harsh. I definitely respect your first hand experience and perspective, and thanks tons for supplying it!

If you’re up for a discussion (not saying anything I’ll comment on is from your posts here), I did want to comment more specifically on the spade. While I agree that a spade should never be used before the rider has done their best to earn the right to use it I would forward the notion that it is FAR more horse friendly than any curb bit or double.

First of all, the curb strap is properly adjusted so that the spoon on a Spanish (ie higher) spade essentially never touches the roof of the mouth. A horse’s mouth widens quickly as it goes back, which is why taller spades are MILDER than short arena spades or half breeds despite their outward appearance.

Next the vast majority of spades are 1.5:1 or 2:1, which is little leverage even if the leverage is even engaged. The reason for higher ratios is to bring the curb (or chain) on other bits into play as quickly as possible, which argues against any notion of being used on signal.

When the reins are in play, the horse has many opportunities to respond before the curb does anything. Rein chains, loose jaws, and mouthpiece braces are all intended to provide a wealth of information without needing to clamp the lower jaw between bar and curb.

So, the reason that horse respond so readily in a spade is simply because there is MORE Information available. I fail to see how that can be considered anything but horse friendly.

As such, I wish that MORE people would use them, not less. The sheer surface area alone makes them a far better choice for an all day working outside bit or arena bit, and the traditions they’re used within (ie the two rein phase etc) encourage the development of horsemanship.

Harsh bits? Hardly.

Plus they’re often gorgeous

[monstrpony]

All very true, aktill. Except.

I’d be all for more people learning to use a spade correctly. The kink is that there are too many people who might use one before they’ve learned, and, alas, the potential for harm on incorrect use (too slack a curb strap, or some wannabe making them with less sympathetic ratios and no balance–but cheaper!!–or just plain heavy hands) is too great for the thought of turning the public loose on them to be anything but a bad idea.

In an ideal world, yes.

In reality? shudder.

I look back on the stuff I did before I knew better, and all of the times my reflexes haven’t been redirected sufficiently, and I won’t let myself ride with one. My early education just wasn’t correct enough, and I’m an old dog now, even if I do understand and appreciate all of the theory.

[aktill]

Sorry, still don’t agree The notion that somehow an undereducated person will do less damage with a snaffle just doesn’t fly with me.

Take “tongue relief” bits which do nothing more than transfer more load off the malleable muscle of the tongue to the thin tissues overlying the bars. Most people have the notion that bar damage or pressure is less harmful than palate pressure. At least a horse can gap his mouth to relieve that, where there’s nothing he can do to avoid bar pressure.

I think the fact that a gapped mouth tells on the rider more than a clamped jaw is the reason spades and the like are not used more often. People whose aspirations outpace their education often would prefer that their level of education isn’t quite that obvious.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=aktill;7243392]
Sorry, still don’t agree The notion that somehow an undereducated person will do less damage with a snaffle just doesn’t fly with me.

Take “tongue relief” bits which do nothing more than transfer more load off the malleable muscle of the tongue to the thin tissues overlying the bars. Most people have the notion that bar damage or pressure is less harmful than palate pressure. At least a horse can gap his mouth to relieve that, where there’s nothing he can do to avoid bar pressure.

I think the fact that a gapped mouth tells on the rider more than a clamped jaw is the reason spades and the like are not used more often. People whose aspirations outpace their education often would prefer that their level of education isn’t quite that obvious.[/QUOTE]

I don’t know how to say this so you won’t become more defensive, but that doesn’t really work as you seem to think.

Sure, you can damage a horse’s mouth with any you misuse, but if a horse’s rein hangs on something with a snaffle or a spade bit, I would say the snaffle would do the least damage as he pulls from it, pure physics that can’t be denied.

Even the ones that have trained horses all the way up on the bridle for decades will tell you it is for few horses and even less riders, because it is a very serious bit if not used correctly.

Sure, a dentist can tell you he has seen more damage from snaffles, well, because most horses are ridden in one, so yes, you would see more from snaffles, if there is any to see.

A spade bit is a very technical, specialist, finished horse bit for that one discipline that uses them.
No need to compare it in any way with a general use, basic training bit like a snaffle.
They just are not in the same league.

[Beverley]

For both spades and full bridles- I guess I come from the ignorance of youth.

In my very first set of English riding lessons at age 10, somewhere along the way I was assigned (my ultimate favorite) lesson horse Pick, a lovely palomino who went in a full bridle- and could both pack beginners and win at the rated shows of the day, inside and outside of the arena courses. I was shown how to hold the reins. There was no detailed explanation of the difference of the bridle- just this one’s the snaffle rein, this one’s the curb rein, keep it slacker than the snaffle rein, here’s how you hold them between these fingers. We dumb kids were just expected to follow such instructions, and we did. Universal truth being that soft hands with any bit are a must. You can just as easily hog up a horse’s mouth with a snaffle as a full bridle or spade, in fact my DVM dentist will tell you physical damage to the tongue happens MUCH more often with a snaffle because people mistakenly believe that they can ‘do no harm’ by jerking a horse around in a snaffle or being otherwise chronically heavy handed.

Ditto with the spade bit- when I rode a friend’s very accomplished reining horse along about age 13- in the presence of the barn manager who was also the horse’s trainer- there were no particular cautions or instructions. It was just expected that I would be riding right including soft hands.

And I have to say, those trainers who say that all horses should be able to spend their lives in nothing but a snaffle or you’ve done it wrong are just all wet. First because yes indeed, some horses do just need more brakes when performing at speed as in eventing, jumping, foxhunting. Second because well, if you spend your lifetime never taking advantage of the ability to ride a properly trained horse in a full bridle or spade, you’re just missing out on a really special treat. It’s like the difference between an automatic transmission and a six speed manual in a car. The former will get you where you want to go quite satisfactorily, but the latter will add fine touches that are just too cool to be able to describe in terms of subtle but exquisite details.

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Beverley;7243459]
For both spades and full bridles- I guess I come from the ignorance of youth.

In my very first set of English riding lessons at age 10, somewhere along the way I was assigned (my ultimate favorite) lesson horse Pick, a lovely palomino who went in a full bridle- and could both pack beginners and win at the rated shows of the day, inside and outside of the arena courses. I was shown how to hold the reins. There was no detailed explanation of the difference of the bridle- just this one’s the snaffle rein, this one’s the curb rein, keep it slacker than the snaffle rein, here’s how you hold them between these fingers. We dumb kids were just expected to follow such instructions, and we did. Universal truth being that soft hands with any bit are a must. You can just as easily hog up a horse’s mouth with a snaffle as a full bridle or spade, in fact my DVM dentist will tell you physical damage to the tongue happens MUCH more often with a snaffle because people mistakenly believe that they can ‘do no harm’ by jerking a horse around in a snaffle or being otherwise chronically heavy handed.

Ditto with the spade bit- when I rode a friend’s very accomplished reining horse along about age 13- in the presence of the barn manager who was also the horse’s trainer- there were no particular cautions or instructions. It was just expected that I would be riding right including soft hands.

And I have to say, those trainers who say that all horses should be able to spend their lives in nothing but a snaffle or you’ve done it wrong are just all wet. First because yes indeed, some horses do just need more brakes when performing at speed as in eventing, jumping, foxhunting. Second because well, if you spend your lifetime never taking advantage of the ability to ride a properly trained horse in a full bridle or spade, you’re just missing out on a really special treat. It’s like the difference between an automatic transmission and a six speed manual in a car. The former will get you where you want to go quite satisfactorily, but the latter will add fine touches that are just too cool to be able to describe in terms of subtle but exquisite details.[/QUOTE]

So, some rough ham handed riders damaged a horse’s mouth with snaffles?
What do you think would have happened with a spade bit in those hands?:no:

Misuse of ANY bit can damage a horse’s mouth.

If we look at pictures of decades ago, I would say, horses really were not working as well as we want to remember, compared with the refinements we have today.
Just look at reining then and today.
Not that there were not some really fine rides, but they were not the norm as they are today.

[Beverley]

@Bluey;7243479

So, some rough ham handed riders damaged a horse’s mouth with snaffles?
What do you think would have happened with a spade bit in those hands?:no:

In one case, when my horse’s teeth were being done and another horse owner had brought her 8 yo homebred dressage horse over to the barn to be done, and the vet showed both of us the lacerations to THAT horse’s tongue, and then went back and pried open my old gelding’s mouth to show a ‘clean’ tongue (horse having been ridden over his lifetime with snaffle and pelham for hunting and low port curb for western pleasure) and the astonished owner breeder said 'not possible, I’ve only ever ridden in a snaffle and hey I’m a dressage rider, I know correct use of hands- yes Bluey, the point was driven home that you can do a lot of damage over time without thinking that you are being heavy handed. What would have happened with a spade bit in those hands would likely have been a broken nose for the rider. And yes, we agree, and I already said (in this thread and in a gazillion other posts over time) that misuse of any bit can damage a horse’s mouth.

In reining then vs now, as you note, plenty of fine rides back then also- but I would not call today universally better (given some threads in these parts on training techniques). I personally don’t care for how some movements, including the sliding stop, have evolved. Having a horse slide 20 feet with its head bowed unnaturally down to its knees just ain’t right, but it seems to be what wins. The ‘right’ stop for me is probably in the middle between that and the old stiff nose up stop. Which I personally didn’t do even in the 60s.

[re-runs]

Thank you for the smooches, I`m blushing. :o

“Additionally, while the ham handed amongst us could sore up a horse pretty easily with a sharp or stiff bosal, a snaffle is BY FAR harsher than a bosal.”

But we may approach using the snaffle with caution because, afterall, it is a metal piece of equipment in the horses mouth. The hackamore, to some, seems more benign so they can use it in a more crude manner and it gets a pass in their minds. I come from a time when you could go to any sale and see horses with 'bosal bumps" on their noses which was a bump of scar tissue caused ty the bosal and that was acceptable. I had a Three Bars grandson that had only a few rides on him when I got him but, he had that bosal bump for all of his 28 years. I would have prefered that it wasnt there but, it happened before I could do anything about it.

Another acceptable injury were raw parts in the corners of the horses lips that looked like cold sores caused by the snaffle. The philosophy being…if you sore them up they will become more sensitive. YIKES! I would never ever do that to a horse even if it was popular. Besides…IT DIDN`T WORK! but everybody was doing it.

I believe there are those that can go right to the hackamore without going to the snaffle first but again, one has to have some really good “following a feel” from the start if you want to go right to the hackamore.

“And I have to say, those trainers who say that all horses should be able to spend their lives in nothing but a snaffle or you’ve done it wrong are just all wet. First because yes indeed, some horses do just need more brakes when performing at speed as in eventing, jumping, foxhunting. Second because well, if you spend your lifetime never taking advantage of the ability to ride a properly trained horse in a full bridle or spade, you’re just missing out on a really special treat.”

Well, I have to disagree with you here, which doesnt make you wrong. Maybe those horses who need more brakes didnt get those braces taken care of in their foundation. People who event, jump and foxhunt only have recently gone to the philosophy of the Dorrances, Ray Hunt and Buck B. and they are still in the minority for their sports. They mostly still start horses like they have always started horses. I agree, it is great to feel what it is like riding a horse in a double bridle or spade …IN A LESSON, on a school master, or on your own horse under supervision. I am all for experimenting on a persons own, but not with these.

“If you’re up for a discussion (not saying anything I’ll comment on is from your posts here), I did want to comment more specifically on the spade. While I agree that a spade should never be used before the rider has done their best to earn the right to use it I would forward the notion that it is FAR more horse friendly than any curb bit or double”…

Aktill, I have to disagree with you here. In most instances, the double bridle would be much less damaging than the spade if used without education. The double has a snaffle that one can go to (it is always there)…a person can go to the snaffle and let the curb just hang there and still fake some pretty fancy riding especially if you school 90% of the time in a plain snaffle like most of the great GP riders did. Where is your second choice to “go to” in the spade, that is if you are not riding with the bosalita? The extra power with using the curb is the curb chain which can bring leverage into play (the port should accomodate the horses tongue) but…on a well trained horse and a feeling rider, look at the angle of the shanks…they will be parallel or almost with the opening of the horses mouth. If the shanks of the curb are pulled too far back, then the curb chain is too loose, the rider is using too much contact or the horse is heavy and leaning and the carriage of the horse will always give away which one. If the spade is pulled so that the shanks are more than verticle, then there is a good chance that the port is hitting the roof of the horse`s mouth. Now, is the horse keeping his head in the proper position because he has been conditioned properly to carry himself in self carriage or is he afraid to adopt another position for fear of hurting himself either by moving himself out of position or the rider putting him back. If a horse in the double gets out of position, a little movement of the snaffle usually puts them back where you want them…no fear of punishment.

On the subject of the horse holding the spade in his mouth, this is why we start the horses out with the snaffles lower than a traditional english rider who adjusts the snaffle with a couple of wrinkles in the corners of the horses mouth. Horses started in the Vaquero way will from the start learn to hold the bit up by themselves. I find it amusing that horses started like this almost have to have their head lowered to remove their bridles because with their heads up, some, do not want to release the bit, they still want to hold it.

[Pocket_Pony]

Here are some articles on bits and bitting. Haven’t finished reading yet, but looks like it studies a few different snaffle bits.

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/publications-1/usdf-connection/USDF_Dec05.pdf

http://cvm.msu.edu/research/research-centers/mcphail-equine-performance-center/publications-1/usdf-connection/USDF_May06_Clayton.pdf

These show some xray pictures of horses with snaffle bits in their mouths - would be interesting to see with a spade bit.

[Beverley]

“Well, I have to disagree with you here, which doesnt make you wrong. Maybe those horses who need more brakes didnt get those braces taken care of in their foundation. People who event, jump and foxhunt only have recently gone to the philosophy of the Dorrances, Ray Hunt and Buck B. and they are still in the minority for their sports. They mostly still start horses like they have always started horses. I agree, it is great to feel what it is like riding a horse in a double bridle or spade …IN A LESSON, on a school master, or on your own horse under supervision. I am all for experimenting on a persons own, but not with these.”

We are fundamentally in agreement. But as I’m sure you know, starting a horse from scratch is orders of magnitude easier than re-schooling something older with issues that indeed didn’t have any sort of right foundation, or maybe did and one clueless rider killed that for good. And as one who always had to scrounge for cheap horses (but nevertheless excellent once re-schooled, even taking those holes into account), life is too short to train them ‘back’ to a snaffle- especially in hunting where when you have to stop NOW, amidst the chaos, you have to really, really do it NOW. With such horses one reaches a perfectly satisfactory agreement that soft in a curb bit is way more fun than hauling on a snaffle or coping with defensive lugging or rooting- a ‘no fault’ fix to a problem that wasn’t the horse’s fault in the first place.

[paulosey]

This has been a very interesting discussion, which I have enjoyed reading. I admire those who have said they are in this for the journey and to develop a horse who is a willing partner. I find myself in that camp.
I was too ignorant as a youth to know that type of horsemanship existed, and as I suspect, it is a growing philosophy among riders to want to become horsemen. Living where I do in the backwaters of horsemanship, I owe a lot to the internet and modern media. If these methods of communicating horsemanship were unavailable to me, I would be still be doing things much as I was taught 40 years ago and I would be missing out on much of the partnership with the horse that I crave.

[Fancy_That]

This has been a WONDERFUL thread!!! I am an English rider - 35 years of riding English - from H/J to Eventing. Never been a Germanic-Dressage/Modern Competitive Dressage fan, though I play in the sandbox to do the Eventing (lower levels, 1 day type events)

I stumbled into the horsemanship type training 20 years ago and have learned from MANY.

In ALL OF THIS DISCUSSION, I am so surprised that the most important aspect of the horse has not been brought up. And that is regarding how the horse feels, his thoughts, his attention, his focus, his MIND SET.

Everyone talks about mechanics, mechanics, mechanics. That is “moving the meat and moving the feet” You have GOT to focus on getting the horse “with you” and that means, MENTALLY.

I know the good horsemen mentioned here get it. Ray Hunt, Tom & Bill Dorrance, Brannaman, Wolter, Neubert, Ensign, Black and more… But it still amazes me how few talk about it and TEACH it.

HARRY WHITNEY, ROSS JACOBS, JOSH NICHOL - they actually talk about this. The law of the horse is - if the MIND is not with the BODY, there is TROUBLE. Trouble= Worry, Anxiety, Brace, Resistance, Rush, Dull, Stuck, Confused, Unconfident, Defiant

Again, these good horsemen KNOW THIS and OPERATE 100% with this in mind…I know they do. And good folks here also know this… but I really do hope that others realize and SEE when the Mind Leaves…what it does in the body, no matter “where you put your leg or how you pick up on a rein or shift your weight”

You must get to the MIND, get the horse to WANT to be with you, mentally. To search for it and find it willingly.

Just wanted to bring up this aspect for clarity :)… and I’m not saying these guys aren’t thinking of that, but I do find that a lot of horsemanship stuff (vaquero/californio/natural horsemanship whatever you want to call it) gets VERY MECHANICAL in its teaching

Once I discovered and truly understood what Harry Whitney is all about (and it took me YEARS to be “ready” for it and want it")…I just keep seeing mechanical/physical/move the meat/move the feet, without the MIND/FOCUS/THOUGHT/ATTENTION/FEELING - as in “how the horse FEELS” being brought up.

Please consider this, everyone. I’ve been watching many of the videos posted here and I’m seeing some folks ignoring that part of the horse. I see the thought escaping and leaking constantly, but the human just going through the mechanics of the work. A horse has to make a MENTAL CHANGE, not just a physical one, when you release. Some folks are releasing for the physical change, not the mental one.

Good stuff, everyone!

[Bluey]

[QUOTE=Fancy That;7244132]
This has been a WONDERFUL thread!!! I am an English rider - 35 years of riding English - from H/J to Eventing. Never been a Germanic-Dressage/Modern Competitive Dressage fan, though I play in the sandbox to do the Eventing (lower levels, 1 day type events)

I stumbled into the horsemanship type training 20 years ago and have learned from MANY.

In ALL OF THIS DISCUSSION, I am so surprised that the most important aspect of the horse has not been brought up. And that is regarding how the horse feels, his thoughts, his attention, his focus, his MIND SET.

Everyone talks about mechanics, mechanics, mechanics. That is “moving the meat and moving the feet” You have GOT to focus on getting the horse “with you” and that means, MENTALLY.

I know wise folks here get it. But it still amazes me how few talk about it.

HARRY WHITNEY, ROSS JACOBS, JOSH NICHOL - they actually talk about this. The law of the horse is - if the MIND is not with the BODY, there is TROUBLE. Trouble= Worry, Anxiety, Brace, Resistance, Rush, Dull, Stuck, Confused, Unconfident, Defiant

Again, these good horsemen KNOW THIS and OPERATE 100% with this in mind, but I really do hope that folks realize and SEE when the Mind Leaves…what it does in the body, no matter “where you put your leg or how you pick up on a rein or shift your weight”

You must get to the MIND, get the horse to WANT to be with you, mentally. To search for it and find it willingly.

Again - I just wanted to bring up this aspect and I’m not saying these guys aren’t thinking of that, but I do find that a lot of horsemanship stuff (vaquero/californio/natural horsemanship whatever you want to call it) gets VERY MECHANICAL

Once I discovered and truly understood what Harry Whitney is all about (and it took me YEARS to be “ready” for it and want it")…I just keep seeing mechanical/physical/move the meat/move the feet, without the MIND/FOCUS/THOUGHT/ATTENTION/FEELING - as in “how the horse FEELS” being brought up.

Please consider this, everyone. I’ve been watching many of the videos posted here and I’m seeing some folks ignoring that part of the horse. I see the thought escaping and leaking constantly, but the human just going through the mechanics of the work. A horse has to make a MENTAL CHANGE, not just a physical one, when you release. Some folks are releasing for the physical change, not the mental one.

Good stuff, everyone![/QUOTE]

Just because someone has been missing something, that doesn’t mean everyone else is missing it also.