The Dressage - Brannaman nexus: Can we talk about particulars?

[Fancy_That]

Yep, my post was aimed at ‘mass public’ audience here.
Wise folks here DO get it, and of course the good horsemen get it…I wanted to bring it up with clarity, since it seldom is talked about and I read this whole thread and kept seeing “move the feet/move the meat” discussed.

Ultimately, it is to get that mind/feeling/willingness inside the horse, but I have seen folks physically go for “maneuvers” WITHOUT noticing or rather “taking care of” the mind/thought/attention/focus.

Horses can get VERY good at keeping their primary thought , whilst “doing what it takes to relieve any pressure” in their secondary thought. Namely, they can do the physical maneuver the human is asking for in a secondary-thought. They learn what the minimal requirement is to do, to get a release. I see this often when horsemanship trainers ask folks to get a “soft feel”, and the horse dips it’s head in and “gives its face”, but its thought/mind is still elsewhere, and there is a brace still. It’s not a true change in the horse.

Not saying you heheheee… Some amazing wise folks here!

[QUOTE=Bluey;7244144]
Just because someone has been missing something, that doesn’t mean everyone else is missing it also.;)[/QUOTE]

[Pocket_Pony]

I’m feeling a bit defensive here because I think I’m the only person who posted a video of myself on this thread so I assume you’re talking about me, but I’ll throw in my two cents. My entire journey started because I wanted to get that harmony, that togetherness, get to my horse’s mind so that he’d want to be with me, so I hope you’re not implying that I’m ignoring that part of my horse. While my timing may not be perfect, my entire goal is focused on him and working in true partnership. So while my actions may not be of one who is executing it perfectly, my mindset is of someone who tries really hard.

In learning this type of horsemanship, I think it is easier to talk about moving the feet because if you have a horse who really isn’t with you, then that’s where it starts (speaking from my own experience). While many have heard over the years about “the one who makes the other one moves is the winner” it is really hard to break down until you start playing with it yourself. You may not realize that every time your horse moves to change YOUR balance, that he’s “won” that little test. While you might think in bigger terms, like actually taking a step, the horse is thinking in minute terms of making you just shift your weight back as he creeps into your space. I still struggle with that.

I think that to learn this, you have to start somewhere. It is quite a bit easier to teach people (and for most people to learn) to move the feet, which does affect change in the horse’s mind. It is quite a bit harder to say “change your horse’s mindset” or “get him with you” - HOW? If most people are ignorant of how their horse feels to begin with, how are you going to get them to make it better? You change the horse’s body and by doing that, getting to the mind is one of the results. The how is the mechanical part, and I think (or I hope, at least), that once people go through the how, then they’ll “get it.” The horse will be the teacher in that respect. They get the horse following a feel, they get the horse moving off of body language, and it is such an enticing feeling that it causes you to search for it more and to see what else you can do to produce that “togetherness” for longer and longer periods of time or more consistency.

I do get what you’re saying, but you can’t go from zero to 100 - you have to go through the journey. What was good and acceptable to me 9 months ago has changed and now I’m going for more (softness, subtlety, willingness, etc.). You give people the tools to learn, but the horse is the ultimate teacher.

One must also take into consideration the personality of the horse - I know how soft I’d ultimately like to be, but how firm I have to start with depends on what’s going on, what sort of mood he’s in that day, etc. Not all horses are the same, obviously.

With regard to putting these people up on a pedestal, I think we have to be careful about that. No one came out of the womb knowing how to be an exceptional horseman, and I’d say that these people have gotten to the point they are through making a lot of mistakes. Likely in their younger years they didn’t think of the horse 100% of the time, they didn’t have perfect timing, they didn’t care what the horse was ‘feeling’ because they had to go out and go to work and make it happen. I think we need to be careful to strive to be good horsemen/women, be firm and fair, work with the horse’s best interests at heart, but not get to the point of magical butterflies and fairy tales.

[Fancy_That]

Well written PoPo! No my observation was general, around folks often going for physical maneuvers without waiting for the change in thought. Not you - totally general.

And in fact, the wise folks here DO understand the mind/feelings/thought/attention/focus and how that rules the body. Any brace/resistance is DUE to the horses’ mind.

People may know this, but they just don’t talk about it enough, in my opinion. And I’m totally generalizing. All of the best horseman know that “getting together” with the horse means - it’s MIND is WITH you…the body will automatically be right there with you.

But “with-you-ness” is mental…the softness and togetherness and harmony you feel in the body, is BECAUSE of the mental with-you-ness.

Again - you are wise as are many here. I’m just bringing the thoughts/feeling of the horse, to the surface, since much of the discussion here as been about mechanics.

[Fillabeana]

I’m feeling a bit defensive here because I think I’m the only person who posted a video of myself on this thread so I assume you’re talking about me

Oh, I would never think that!!

I was listening to the radio, about a ‘Ted Talk’, where the ‘inspirational speaker’ was asked to give corporate inspirational speeches about ‘change’, ‘revolutionary ideas’ and such. The speaker wanted to talk about vulnerability, because all the change and revolutionary ideas did not happen before you subject yourself to criticism.

[Fillabeana]

And Pocket, you really bring up something at the very heart of all this: that little voice, telling you maybe you don’t like that trainer. Having the horse perform the ‘right’ moves, using its body correctly, is something more than just a few people can get working for them. Getting it working while the horse is mentally connected, a partner, helping you and filling in for you…that’s the heart and soul of the matter.

Fancy, I’m quoting myself from page 6.

Just because someone has been missing something, that doesn’t mean everyone else is missing it also

Amen, Bluey!

[Fillabeana]

So why ever talk about twisting a horse’s head with a bosal? That should never be your intention or experience… because the horse should be too uber-broke by then and because you shouldn’t ever hold on to a rein that long. That’s just not how this contrast device works.

Oh, and I don’t think twisting a horse’s head (really, his atlas) on its axis should be something a horseman wants.
You see this happen a lot. IMO, its because of ignorant riding and neck arthritis being more common in horses than we think.

mvp, I think you are maybe missing something very major here, that we do NOT want horses to bend between atlas and axis: I would say 90% of both lateral and vertical flexion are effected with a BRACE at the poll joint. Both vertical and lateral flexions, the beneficial ones at the root of all of these ‘exercises’, aim to get rid of a brace at the POLL joint. Therefore, the neck is bending between C2 and C3, (or atlas/axis rather than poll/atlas) permanently damaging/overstretching the nuchal ligament (vertical) or causing a twist at the first vertebrae that allows that ‘ears not level’ movement, which I can’t conjure at the moment.

However, in the heat of the foxhunt or the cow work, you can’t wait for things to be just right. Or in the heat of a runaway, or a colt in a storm. You WILL have to double that horse, bring him around. NOW! And I don’t think you’re going to have much luck with that in a bosal, unless you either have a horse that just isn’t ever that panicky, or if you HAVE had to pull him around with a snaffle or a halter (if you’re halter breaking something that wasn’t handled as a foal.)

But for a while there, if you are in working situations, you might just have to pull a horse around. Take your really nicely started, getting along well, horse to a branding, and somebody else’s horse can pretty easily get YOU into a wreck. You don’t take your horse at ALL until you’ve roped hind feet, and got him used to having the rope in weird places, and various commotions here and there…but there’s nothing like a branding to make a big wreck, quick…and you might have to double your horse. By pulling, hard, laterally.

So yes, you’re going to double that horse with a big brace in his loin and his poll, and bend him right around (at the atlas/axis,. probably) so you can shut down the big storm. If you can at all.

And, as a further note, why on earth have a mecate rein at all if you must use a ‘post hand’ to make the bosal signal the horse properly? Unless you only ever pull straight back on the mecate rein? You’d need a fiador if you’re pulling forward. But anyway, leading the horse should have a gesture in which the lead rope is held, and asked, laterally.

[Fillabeana]

OK, wait, mvp, reading your post for comprehension…you DO get that when we bend, we shouldn’t be asking for that atlas/axis nor C2/C3…
but yes, sometimes we need that to effect a shutdown switch!

[Fillabeana]

I’m just bringing the thoughts/feeling of the horse, to the surface, since much of the discussion here as been about mechanics.

Well, yes, great point, Fancy.
A horse’s braces ARE mental. And sometimes we can get him turned loose mentally first, and all the rest of his mental/physical braces just go away.
I love to watch Ray Hunt’s Turning Loose video, he gets a couple of horses, by really going after what he sees as the biggest mental block, into a really different state. Magic to watch.

But the act of addressing the brace physically, and waiting for the horse to release it, has a profound effect on his mental state…if you don’t go galloping past it to get the next ‘exercise’ right.

[re-runs]

“if you don’t go galloping past it to get the next ‘exercise’ right.”

Thank you Fillabeana for putting it that way.

One thing that I really got out of watching Joe Wolter ride a dozen horses over a weekend was… the overall feeling you get from him is that he was helping the horses out and wanted them to know that…EVERY TIME he did something with them. It wasn`t long before the horses were asking him what they were going to do next because they were actually looking forward to that good feeling that he kept giving them. He was conscious of their concerns and they knew he knew because he kept putting them in a postion where he could let them feel good about what he was asking. Real good, not just sorta good. Most people always want the horses working FOR THEM, but here was a guy that worked for the horses, as their helper, so that it came to be a trusting relationship almost immediately. No wonder Ray Hunt called himself the horses lawyer. I always thought that he was defending the horses against the people and that might have been part of it but…I now think that he was saying he wanted the horse to know that he was their lawyer, as in…being their helper/ confidant. I could watch Joe Wolter for another three days, dozen horses because he never is NOT aware of what the horse is thinking and he is the most subtle rider I think I have ever watched.

I go and clinic with anybody that comes anywhere near my part of the woods as long as they had a connection with either Tom, Bill Dorrance or Ray Hunt. Before he passed, I got to see Ray Hunt many times, many clincs, many years and all the while I was looking for Tom in Ray. And the reason I keep going to these clinics is because I never really got to see Tom or Bill D. work horses except on video. I am trying to get as close to those two as possible, through learning from their understudies. I keep getting glimpses with every clinic (including Harry Whitney`s) and even changing my mind about things that I “thought” that they meant.

“If he’s blinking he’s thinking, if he’s not he’s hot … not sure you realise that what you heard is not what I meant” - Tom Dorrance.

[aktill]

“And, as a further note, why on earth have a mecate rein at all if you must use a ‘post hand’ to make the bosal signal the horse properly? Unless you only ever pull straight back on the mecate rein? You’d need a fiador if you’re pulling forward. But anyway, leading the horse should have a gesture in which the lead rope is held, and asked, laterally.”

Because the rein attachment is below the jaw, and if you lift up on a rein, you’ll encourage his nose out of plumb. Just try hanging it on a fence post, this is just a mechanical effect.

You don’t get that in a riding cavesson because the rein attachment is on the upper side of the nose. In fact, that item encourages the horse to tuck his jowl, in Hunt speak, where a single reined bosal does the opposite.

The purpose of a mecate rein is a safety and working measure anyway (also addresses an earlier Bluey comment about split reins on a bosal). It’s MUCH SAFER to get on holding only the get down than to choke up on a rein like the English folks do. If the horse moves off or spooks and you step off with just the get down, you’ll cause his hindquarters to spin away. If you’re holding the rein, you can affect the off side rein and encourage the forequarter to step towards you. Also handy if you get bucked off 15 miles from home, to have some chance of having a rope to get a hold of. Then there are the aspects of working your horse when dealing wth a tied down cow etc.

[aktill]

Not sure why you’re saying that doubling isn’t likely with a bosal? Doubling is a vaquero term…used by folks that start horses in a bosal. There are letters on the subject here http://www.hackamore-reinsman.com

Even Buck commented that disengaging the hindquarters and doubling are the same thing, with the former requiring timing and the latter not often having it.

The snaffle just has more lateral bite and are more capable of inflicting pain, and that’s why there’s a greater illusion of control. Lots of folks prefer them for that reason alone, hence why those of limited horsemanship ability tend to label bosals as bluffs.

[Fillabeana]

Just try hanging it on a fence post, this is just a mechanical effect.

But it’s not on a fence post, it’s on a horse’s face. And a good bosal is shaped to a horse’s face. So it is going to contact the horse’s face when you pick up a rein, not tip like it is hung from a fence or a doorknob. If you have to pull hard, yes, you’re going to pull the heel knot sideways.

I just think using a rein on a bosal does not in any way require a post hand in order to give the horse a signal that he can reasonably understand.
Yes, you’d ideally be using an indirect rein. But if an opening rein was really a huge problem, I’d have heard about it by now from Buck in a clinic, Bryan in a clinic or on dvd, Dr. Deb Bennett, or Harry Whitney via Tom Moates.

Adam, I don’t know that your’e hurting anything, I just really have a strong opinion that the whole ‘post hand’ necessity is bogus.

And I HAVE heard both Richard Caldwell and Bruce Sandifer refer to doing groundwork (as you would with a halter, with a LATERAL direction to the rein) on the mecate rein.

[mvp]

[QUOTE=aktill;7243197]

I asked Buck why he promotes starting in a snaffle and moving onto a hackamore later and he said it’s because he doesn’t like to lose time at the two rein phase with a horse that has to get used to carrying a bit. It’s not because a snaffle makes a better start than a hackamore.

In fact, given that the rider has less ability to force a horse to do something in a hackamore than in a snaffle it forces more horsemanship into the bargain. A considerate rider has little to be afraid of by choosing to even start a horse in a hackamore.[/QUOTE]

I’m curious about why someone would prefer to start in a hackamore… especially someone of the Brannaman persuasion where there is just.so.much lateral flexion, at least in his clinics. Not only it is it often, but I heads twisted way around to the rider. I think this would be hard to do in a bosal.

[Fillabeana]

why those of limited horsemanship ability tend to label bosals as bluffs.

Also I have heard those of extraordinary ability refer to bosals as bluffs. Like Buck. And Ray.

[aktill]

“le horse? I mean, it seems like a lot of this work is steeped in tradition and handing down knowledge in a somewhat hard-to-find way for the regular person who is keen to learn. Is there a “mecca” for this type of training? (Like dressage, where maybe you’d want to be in SoCal or Florida.)”

Forgot to mention that the only one I’ve ever heard of that is willing to use their horses as school masters is Bruce Sandifer in CA. He’ll pop you on his best bridle horse without blinking, which is why a trip down that way is on my list of things to do. Can’t think of many of other folks that will let mortals like us on their spade bit ponies.

[Fillabeana]

And mvp, Buck does NOT prefer to start in the hackamore. In fact his horses spend about 6 months in a bosal, after about 1 1/2 years of consistent riding in the snaffle. (Two and three year olds get started, worked a bit, and turned back out in Buck land, they don’t get ridden a bunch before they’re 4.)

Not sure why you’re saying that doubling isn’t likely with a bosal?

In MY opinion, the bosal IS a bluff. I don’t want to be doubling the horse except in extreme circumstances, in the bosal. After I have done some shut-down-the-dangerous-storm doubling in the snaffle.
And if you have ridden any horses that you had to get shut down before you end up bucked off on your head…you’d agree the bosal is a bluff too.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=Fillabeana;7244974]
Also I have heard those of extraordinary ability refer to bosals as bluffs. Like Buck. And Ray.[/QUOTE]

They don’t blame the tool for run away horses though. Anyway, by that logic anything is a bluff…plenty of horses run through double bridles and curb bits with huge leverage, yet those aren’t bluffs.

[Fillabeana]

Oh, and compare the snaffle.
It will absolutely tip the horse’s nose out of plumb if you PULL on it, and don’t reward the action you’re asking for. Just go watch any Buck clinic, 80% of the people have their horse’s noses tipped sideways. Doesn’t mean a direct rein is a bad thing- rather that the people don’t know what they’re looking for.

[aktill]

[QUOTE=mvp;7244973]
I’m curious about why someone would prefer to start in a hackamore… especially someone of the Brannaman persuasion where there is just.so.much lateral flexion, at least in his clinics. Not only it is it often, but I heads twisted way around to the rider. I think this would be hard to do in a bosal.[/QUOTE]

Because it’s not fair to jam metal in the frequently sore mouth of a horse with developing teeth, and there are those that see snaffles as crude and prefer that the first bit be a spade at 6 or 7.

I asked Buck this in the clinic I rode in, and he said he uses the snaffle because a horse has to get used to a bit some time, and he doesn’t want that in a mature useful horse that’s going into the two rein. He said in an ideal world his personal ideal progression is:
2 yrs snaffle
2 months in ONE BOSAL, not a progression
Two rein with a half breed, time varies
Then bridle work.

He very explicitly said there’s nothing wrong with starting in a bosal, just not his preferred method. I asked.

[Fillabeana]

They don’t blame the tool for run away horses though.

No, they don’t,
But they do know how, and when, to go back to the toolbox for a tool that carries quite a bit more bite on a fractious, opinionated, spoiled, or otherwise difficult horse.
And they DON’T try to start such a beast in a bosal until they have consistency of response, usually through the snaffle.

And most vets can take wolf teeth out. I’ve only ever had one young horse that had ‘teething’ trouble, and that was wolf teeth.
‘Back in the day’, yes, you might have to use a bosal so you weren’t hurting the horse with the snaffle. But by today’s standards, I’m not buying that one either.