Michael Osinski (FEI4*) and Janet Foy (FEI5*) will be hosting a zoom meeting to discus changes in judging over the last 30 years. WIth all the recent - and continued- discussion IRT training vs gaits, and making dressage more accessible, I thought this might be interesting… https://www.facebook.com/cesar.torrente/posts/2940990509272384
Oh how I wish it weren’t on facebook, so that I could listen. 
It’s a very interesting subject.
It is not on FB…it is a Zoom meeting.
Welcome to our Dressage Talk No. 2. To join us next Friday just click the following link: CESAR TORRENTE is inviting you to a scheduled Zoom meeting.
Topic: Janet FOY (FEI5*) and Michael OSINSKI (FEI4*) the evolution of dressage judging in the last 30 years …and the future.
Time: Apr 3, 2020 06:00 PM Bogota
Join Zoom Meeting
https://us04web.zoom.us/j/604511365…
Meeting ID: 604 511 365
Password: 296709
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Thank you! I will try to connect with the meeting. I am unfamiliar with Zoom.:o I have no idea what it entails.
download zoom it is fast and easypgoogle zoom website. figure out the time, bogata is central time if I am not mistaken. Open zoom app on your computer click on the link posted above and enter the password on the pop up window to join
when screen is open be sure to hover down at the bottom and click the mic to mute the sounds in your home otherwise others can hear your sounds. click the video share to see the presenters
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And just FYI, you don’t have to share your video to see their video. Rarely do I believe anyone needs to look up my nose during meetings. Just sayin’…:lol:
Thank you. Perhaps I’ll wait and see if there’s a transcript. 
He said he would post the recording of the session.
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That’s nice.:yes:
For the historians in the crowd…Ivan Bezugloff and his Dressage & CT Magazine
https://www.usdf.org/EduDocs/History…zugloff_Jr.pdf [INDENT]In its heyday, Dressage & CT was a must-read for the intellectual equestrian. There was no gloss, no “equestrian lifestyle” component, no stunning photography, no award-winning design. D&CT was rather more like a scholarly journal, with lengthy treatises on training, equine biomechanics, competitions, and sport and governance issues. Its small but passionate group of subscribers hoarded every issue and spent hours poring over the dense content.[/INDENT]
Seems the USDF owns the intellectual property that remains of the magazine.
And as applies to changes in dressage judging…here is an exerpt of who won the Insilco Championships [INDENT]Woodimix, a Thoroughbred gelding owned and ridden by 26-year-old Kim Beardsley of issaquah, Washington, won both Grand Prix preliminary classes, entering Sunday’s freestyle ride-of with a commanding lead which he maintained despite two costly omissions which lowered the Kuer score, to be named the Insilco United States Grand Prix champion. Jaye Cherry’s Appaloosa, Moga, was ranked fourth after the Friday preliminary class but moved up on Saturday to second and maintained that ranking through the Sunday ride-off. Third place at Grand Prix was Moonshadow, a Thoroughbred mare owned and ridden by Barbi Breen of Los Osos, California.[/INDENT]
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@pluvinel , perhaps what that shows is the fact that European warmbloods were very rare in America at that time. I would say that MOST of the horses competing at that time were “American” breeds such as TB and, yes, Appys.
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This is true…WB’s were rare in the 1980’s.
But the fact remains that at that time you (general you) could get a TB or an Appy and the owner could train it and compete it to GP.
That is no longer true.
The horses haven’t changed. So what has changed?
So if the horses haven’t changed, my answer is that the judging changed and was skewed to favor the movement of the WB. Who, how or why that happened, I don’t know.
What this shift did do was to the detriment of all other breeds who do not have WB movement.
And by the rule of unintended consequences, the shift in emphasis in gaits thus drove the TB’s and other breeds…that are more affordable… out of competitive slots.
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you can still take a nice QH, TB to GP today. Have seen them at Dressage at Devon. Are they beating the WB’s? No but they are putting in nice 60+ tests. Which is what the TB’s and other “off-breeds” were pulling off in the 80’s, 90’s.
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I would like to see what the SCORES were for those American non-warmbloods. Sure they won classes HERE; were they competitive internationally? (yeah, Keen, but overall?)
Maybe what changed was not the judging but the presence of imported warmbloods raising the scores necessary to get a $1 ribbon.
Certainly the joys and challenges of training a non-WB up the levels has not changed.
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I showed back then. A score in the 60’s at GP was considered a good score. A 65% a top score. Above that, well it didn’t happen much. Warmbloods were not around. The first ones that I saw imported were cast off, low quality Trakehners. Once we wised up, we started importing better horses, and selling the German western riders our cast off, low quality Quarter horses. (They also wised up eventually!)
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I know it ages me, but who else remembers back in the 80s when everyone wanted a TB, hunters, jumpers, dressage, eventers. Back then warmbloods were often referred to as “dumbbloods”.
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And if you were getting scores in the 60’s (even low 60’s) people would look at you side-eyed if you didn’t move up to the next level.
I would like to just throw out there, that had the horses (off-breed or warmblood) been meeting the objectives of the tests from the 70’s, 80’s, 90’s, they too would have been scoring in the high 70’s, 80’s, approaching the 90% mark. But even back then, the judges didn’t think the horseflesh under the fantastic riders were meeting the objectives of good (8), very good (9) or excellent (10). Breeding of the modern dressage horse has brought the horse under the fantastic riders into the 8, 9, 10 marks. Those who can’t ride that horse are still getting 5, 6, 7’s. And those who can ride the off-breed well are getting 6, 7, and the occasional 8’s. Same as in the 70’s, 80’s
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This bolded part is a concept based on “today’s” evaluation criteria. Horses WERE getting higher and lower scores. There is serious “grade inflation” going on today.
I attended a judge’s seminar as an auditor that was held at Gladstone back in the mid-1990’s. Nowhere in my recollections were the criteria from back then the same as the criteria being applied today…the biggest of which is the intense focus on awarding points for the “gaits.” Today you see where irregular but flashy trots are scored highly.
The configuration for that jusge’s training was that there was a gallery of judges seated along the short side at “C” and the auditors were to their left, seated along the long side. The “trainer judges” would have 2 demo horses come in to illustrate specific movements and how to judge, then that person left and another rider rode the whole test. Each movement in the test was then reviewed and the gallery of judges had to hold up a card with their score…and justify it.
I got to see all the big names and what they scored. Most everyone gave 6’s…and had to justify why. The trainer judges we gigging the student judges about their middle-of-the-road scores. Klaus Fraesdorf (RIP) was quite pointed in asking why a certain judge was not using the whole scale to award either higher OR LOWER numbers.
Well, gailbyrd, if you were getting scores in the 60’s at Grand Prix, no one was expecting you to move up! Just sayin"…
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Agreed:)
Just looked up the scores for the 1976 olympics. Winning ride, 74.7%, Keen was 10th with a 64.3%. Don’t know what scores he was getting in the US. Don’t get me wrong, would have LOVED to have a horse as good as Keen. But even in 1976, our dear TB’s were no match for the European WB’s.
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