The evolution in dressage judging over the last 30 years

[MorganSercu]

This doesn’t make sense to me. A badly-trained horse won’t succeed at the Olympics, no matter how talented.

everything is about the quality of the horses and not so much about the training? Won’t this be bad for non-typical breeds in the GP?
We have to recognize the horse as an athlete
Quality comes first because dressage is an Olympic sport and everybody must be judged the same (there can’t be different judging for people going to the Olympics and people not going to the Olympics)
“Quality of the horse doesn’t matter if the training is not correct”
Quality + Basics + Essence of Movement + Modifiers
Less athletic horse with very good training “probably” will win over very athletic horse with bad training
Movements that reveal training: walk pirouettes (not in GP test anymore), walk, reinback
Specially bred horses will score better but there is a place for the other horses (MO)

[Cowgirl]

I thought the YouTube (still on there) of the Zoom chat was interesting. One thing that was briefly mentioned is that certain movements that reflected training and not gaits, have been removed from the tests (like shaukel and walk pirouettes) and that too has shifted the entire picture. Perhaps more exercises that exhibit proper training should be put back in? I like the point system they are creating for mistakes which creates an equalizer. A rider who has two mistakes in the tempi changes should not get a 7 (“fairly good”), even if the quality of the gait and the canter is very high. By the same token, I’d like to see straightness and bend in certain movements be a double weighted element, as that would be a training component. Etc.

[pluvinel]

@lorilu

Michael Osinski (FEI4*) and Janet Foy (FEI5*) will be hosting a zoom meeting to discus changes in judging over the last 30 years. WIth all the recent - and continued- discussion IRT training vs gaits, and making dressage more accessible, I thought this might be interesting… https://www.facebook.com/cesar.torrente/posts/2940990509272384

Thank you for posting the link. I listened to the recording and here is my transcription of what I heard. Others can fast forward if they want to listen to the details.

I also noted the comments made by @Cowgirl about the movements that reflect on quality of the training having been taken out of the tests.

Here is the transcription…enjoy.

Dressage Talk No. 2:
Janet Foy and Mike Osinski - https://youtu.be/JvqQ-xzZYtI

• 3:40 JF – “Judging has changed….In the 60’6and 70’s judging methodology was totally different.” Discusses the history of how one became a dressage judge.
• 20:30 JF – Discusses fee structure for judges, US vs Europe.US, judges work 8-5, get a fee, get all expenses paid, so you can have “professional judges.” In Europe, no one is paid. When US judges judge in Europe they are given €120 euros per diem plus air fare and expenses. In the US, the show manager says, “I will give you $1200 or my budget is $700, will you come and judge?”
• 26:00 CT asks about the judging in the 1970’s and 1980’s and whether it was “more strict?”
• 26:44 JF answers at that time Gustaf Nyblaeus was head of FEI Dressage Committee followed by Niggli.One mistake as a 4. She gives examples and acknowledges that scores were lower and the “whole scale was lower.” Methodology changed when Eric Lette took over he started to bring in the word “quality.” He also introduced the idea that one should look at what happened before the error and after rather than giving automatic 4. Also the half-points increased the “favorite score” from a 6 to a 6.5
• 30:32 JF discusses the Judge Supervisory Panel (JSP)
• 31:14 JF discusses things that could be better, including using more of the scale.
• 32:10 MO discusses changes in the judging scale a nd that the “methodology has changed” and how in the past “all we had were thoroughbreds and quarter horses…we didn’t have the fantastic horses we have now... the quality of the horses are much better now.”
• 33:03 CT asks 2 questions from the audience:Q1: We have been talking about quality, quality, quality, isn’t this dressage then about the quality of the horses and not so much of the training, so isn’t this dressage now turning into a breed show? Q2: Wouldn’t this influence be very bad for non-typical breeds like if we go to the Grand Prix with a thoroughbred or an Iberian. Would that affect those horses and what are your thoughts?
• 33:49 JF answers: The quality comes first. The horse is an athlete after all our sport in in the Olympics so we can’t have two scales one for those who are going to the Olympics and those who are not. We have to recognize the horse as an athlete and the rider as an athlete. The quality of the horse doesn’t matter if the training is not correct. First we have Quality + then Basics (the training scale) + then [B]The Essence of the Movement, the most important part of whatever movement they’re doing[/B] + and then we have the Modifiers where we go up or down.
• 35:12 JF continues: So if we have a horse that is very athletic with bad training and we have a horse that is less athletic with very correct training, [B]probably[/B] that horse is going to win at the end of the day. Our goal is to have the best horse with the best training winning. I have a barn in Florida full of Iberians so I know what they do well and what they don’t do well. … JF had other interesting comments about taking out movements that address quality of the training like the shaukel and the walk pirouettes.
• 37:00 MO discusses TB’s are bred to run, so their quality of movement is really not going to show as well as a warmblood or some other horse that was bred for that.“if you look at Kentucky you had Totilas and Fuego and they rose to the top of their sport.
• 38:35 JF discusses the Code of Points. Being done by the International Dressage Officials Club (IDOC) and the International Dressage Trainers Club (IDTC). It takes the old “one mistake is a four” and marries it to Eric Lette’s quality.
• 40:42: JF “We all need to have the same standard.
• 1:01:03: JF discusses the change in horses. “But Mike, ok on the other hand look at those big honkin’ warm bloods we use to ride. I mean they were not sensitive, they did not want to go, they were one step removed from the plow in the field.”
• 1:02:51: CT asks about the European “forward” vs the American “slow.”
• 1:03:03 JF answers: “…that’s why we disagree on the Prix St. George so much we laugh and say five judges can have five different winners because the PSG has straight lines and you can have a big moving horse and pretty much kill it in that test except for the pirouettes so there is a fine line between forward and real training and developing the gaits and the quality of collection

[pluvinel]

Here is the transcription…sorry if this posts twice…first time went to a black hole. I also noted the comment that the test movements that reflected quality of training had been removed from the test.

• 3:40 JF – “Judging has changed….In the 60’6and 70’s judging methodology was totally different.” Discusses the history of how one became a dressage judge.
• 20:30 JF – Discusses fee structure for judges, US vs Europe.US, judges work 8-5, get a fee, get all expenses paid, so you can have “professional judges.” In Europe, no one is paid. When US judges judge in Europe they are given €120 euros per diem plus air fare and expenses. In the US, the show manager says, “I will give you $1200 or my budget is $700, will you come and judge?”
• 26:00 CT asks about the judging in the 1970’s and 1980’s and whether it was “more strict?”
• 26:44 JF answers at that time Gustaf Nyblaeus was head of FEI Dressage Committee followed by Niggli.One mistake as a 4. She gives examples and acknowledges that scores were lower and the “whole scale was lower.” Methodology changed when Eric Lette took over he started to bring in the word “quality.” He also introduced the idea that one should look at what happened before the error and after rather than giving automatic 4. Also the half-points increased the “favorite score” from a 6 to a 6.5
• 30:32 JF discusses the Judge Supervisory Panel (JSP)
• 31:14 JF discusses things that could be better, including using more of the scale.
• 32:10 MO discusses changes in the judging scale a nd that the “methodology has changed” and how in the past “all we had were thoroughbreds and quarter horses…we didn’t have the fantastic horses we have now... the quality of the horses are much better now.”
• 33:03 CT asks 2 questions from the audience:Q1: We have been talking about quality, quality, quality, isn’t this dressage then about the quality of the horses and not so much of the training, so isn’t this dressage now turning into a breed show? Q2: Wouldn’t this influence be very bad for non-typical breeds like if we go to the Grand Prix with a thoroughbred or an Iberian. Would that affect those horses and what are your thoughts?
• 33:49 JF answers: The quality comes first. The horse is an athlete after all our sport in in the Olympics so we can’t have two scales one for those who are going to the Olympics and those who are not. We have to recognize the horse as an athlete and the rider as an athlete. The quality of the horse doesn’t matter if the training is not correct. First we have Quality + then Basics (the training scale) + then [B]The Essence of the Movement, the most important part of whatever movement they’re doing[/B] + and then we have the Modifiers where we go up or down.
• 35:12 JF continues: So if we have a horse that is very athletic with bad training and we have a horse that is less athletic with very correct training, [B]probably[/B] that horse is going to win at the end of the day. Our goal is to have the best horse with the best training winning. I have a barn in Florida full of Iberians so I know what they do well and what they don’t do well. … JF had other interesting comments about taking out movements that address quality of the training like the shaukel and the walk pirouettes.
• 37:00 MO discusses TB’s are bred to run, so their quality of movement is really not going to show as well as a warmblood or some other horse that was bred for that.“if you look at Kentucky you had Totilas and Fuego and they rose to the top of their sport.
• 38:35 JF discusses the Code of Points. Being done by the International Dressage Officials Club (IDOC) and the International Dressage Trainers Club (IDTC). It takes the old “one mistake is a four” and marries it to Eric Lette’s quality.
• 40:42: JF “We all need to have the same standard.
• 1:01:03: JF discusses the change in horses. “But Mike, ok on the other hand look at those big honkin’ warm bloods we use to ride. I mean they were not sensitive, they did not want to go, they were one step removed from the plow in the field.”
• 1:02:51: CT asks about the European “forward” vs the American “slow.”
• 1:03:03 JF answers: “…that’s why we disagree on the Prix St. George so much we laugh and say five judges can have five different winners because the PSG has straight lines and you can have a big moving horse and pretty much kill it in that test except for the pirouettes so there is a fine line between forward and real training and developing the gaits and the quality of collection

[pluvinel]

Testing …and wondering why my posts are “unapproved”

[pluvinel]

I had posted this before and the post went into the black hole of “unapproved” so I am trying again.

Here is my transcription of the Zoom presentation. Same as @Cowgirl I also noted Janet saying that the movements that were used to reflect the quality of training were removed from the test.

I would also ask why of the various components of judging, why “Essence of the Movement” is not the first item that judges should consider vs “Quality.”

JF = Janet Foy
CT = Cesar Torrente
MO = Michael Osinski

https://youtu.be/JvqQ-xzZYtI

• 3:40 JF – “Judging has changed….In the 60’6and 70’s judging methodology was totally different.” Discusses the history of how one became a dressage judge.
• 20:30 JF – Discusses fee structure for judges, US vs Europe. US, judges work 8-5, get a fee, get all expenses paid, so you can have “professional judges.” In Europe, no one is paid. When US judges judge in Europe they are given €120 euros per diem plus air fare and expenses. In the US, the show manager says, “I will give you $1200 or my budget is $700, will you come and judge?”
• 26:00 CT asks about the judging in the 1970’s and 1980’s and whether it was “more strict?”
• 26:44 JF answers at that time Gustaf Nyblaeus was head of FEI Dressage Committee followed by Niggli. One mistake as a 4. She gives examples and acknowledges that scores were lower and the “whole scale was lower.” Methodology changed when Eric Lette took over he started to bring in the word “quality.” He also introduced the idea that one should look at what happened before the error and after rather than giving automatic 4. Also the half-points increased the “favorite score” from a 6 to a 6.5
• 30:32 JF discusses the Judge Supervisory Panel (JSP)
• 31:14 JF discusses things that could be better, including using more of the scale.
• 32:10 MO discusses changes in the judging scale a nd that the “methodology has changed” and how in the past “all we had were thoroughbreds and quarter horses…we didn’t have the fantastic horses we have now... the quality of the horses are much better now.”
• 33:03 CT asks 2 questions from the audience: Q1: We have been talking about quality, quality, quality, isn’t this dressage then about the quality of the horses and not so much of the training, so isn’t this dressage now turning into a breed show? Q2: Wouldn’t this influence be very bad for non-typical breeds like if we go to the Grand Prix with a thoroughbred or an Iberian. Would that affect those horses and what are your thoughts?
• 33:49 JF answers: The quality comes first. The horse is an athlete after all our sport in in the Olympics so we can’t have two scales one for those who are going to the Olympics and those who are not. We have to recognize the horse as an athlete and the rider as an athlete. The quality of the horse doesn’t matter if the training is not correct. First we have Quality + then Basics (the training scale) + then [B]The Essence of the Movement, the most important part of whatever movement they’re doing[/B] + and then we have the Modifiers where we go up or down.
• 35:12 JF continues: So if we have a horse that is very athletic with bad training and we have a horse that is less athletic with very correct training, [B]probably[/B] that horse is going to win at the end of the day. Our goal is to have the best horse with the best training winning. I have a barn in Florida full of Iberians so I know what they do well and what they don’t do well. … JF had other interesting comments about taking out movements that address quality of the training like the shaukel and the walk pirouettes.
• 37:00 MO discusses TB’s are bred to run, so their quality of movement is really not going to show as well as a warmblood or some other horse that was bred for that. “if you look at Kentucky you had Totilas and Fuego and they rose to the top of their sport.
• 38:35 JF discusses the Code of Points. Being done by the International Dressage Officials Club (IDOC) and the International Dressage Trainers Club (IDTC). It takes the old “one mistake is a four” and marries it to Eric Lette’s quality.
• 40:42: JF “We all need to have the same standard.
• 1:01:03: JF discusses the change in horses. “But Mike, ok on the other hand look at those big honkin’ warm bloods we use to ride. I mean they were not sensitive, they did not want to go, they were one step removed from the plow in the field.”
• 1:02:51: CT asks about the European “forward” vs the American “slow.”
• 1:03:03 JF answers: “…that’s why we disagree on the Prix St. George so much we laugh and say five judges can have five different winners because the PSG has straight lines and you can have a big moving horse and pretty much kill it in that test except for the pirouettes so there is a fine line between forward and real training and developing the gaits and the quality of collection

[alibi_18]

@gailbyrd

Not AZ TD but I’ll bite.

Today’s horses are much more fluid in their overall movements. The walks on all of the horses in the 64 film had no overtrack, no fluidity. Lots of tail wringing (something that was brought up about 10-15 years ago about many of the top horses, indicating to many arm-chair quarterbacks tension in the horses due to poor riding. I don’t necessarily agree, some horses just wring their tails like some horses chomp on the bit more than others).

Some lateral walk as well.
Some mouth wide open.
Counter bending.
Irregular steps (maybe just the video or for being so tense)
Rushed around.

But this is stuff we still see today, maybe less at the Olympics level…

Canter pirouettes were rushed and spins, not pirouettes.

Pirouettes were like that at that time.
(Still, some were faulty as they were turning around their centre)

It’s later that the 6-8 steps was introduced.

Backs were stiff, Passage really had no lift. Some piaffes were good, most were just bouncing up and down, many of the same complaints we hear today. Many of these rides may be scored even lower today than what they were scored in 1964. Just my $0.02 and worth less than that I’m sure.

The third horse was smoother but didn’t even look ready for that level.

The horseflesh at the top of the heap in the dressage world has certainly changed. Even the off-breeds that do well at our national levels do as well if not better today due to the better training and understanding of the horse.

Yep.