The "Give & Take" of Riding - GM's Educated Hands

[Inverness]

I really got a lot out of GM’s explanation of the “give” of an educated hand in his recent COTH piece.

Tell me if I’m all wet, but it seems to me that a good rider must be constantly attuned to the delicate nature of his/her communication with the horse. One of the most challenging aspects of riding for me has been trying to gauge how much to take and give at particular times. It strikes me as a dynamic balancing act; always fluid, never static.

I think I’ve written here before that Billy tends to get fast and strong when jumping. Yet, he hates having a rider on his mouth all the time.

My difficulty is in determining how strong I have to be to get him to slow to my preferred pace without being a bully. I’m finding that I may have to be more forceful than I’m naturally inclined to be. I know I have the upper body strength to really cause him discomfort, but I don’t want to go that far to get my point across.

I’m also concerned that I may be telling him one thing with my uneducated seat and another with my uneducated hands. This is another reason I am hesitant to really take on the reins when he gets fast. It is also the reason that I wouldn’t want to use a stronger bit. I want to find the ideal balance by improving my riding and using the mildest bit I can.

I apologize for using this thread to do some thinking out loud w/o really knowing what I’m looking for in response. Suffice it to say I understand why GM states that developing educated hands takes a lifetime. I’m just afraid I don’t have that long . . .

[Wicky]

What a wonderful thread! The only drawback is how much it points out that it takes “a lifetime, and then some” to get it right. I’ll probably never get it right - not enough lifetime left even to get close!

These days, no matter how much I want to concentrate on my riding, I find that my mind wanders when I ride. No wonder my poor horse is getting conflicting messages!

And, I think that my instincts were better when I was getting lunged (many years ago), although my knowledge was far less.

I’d love to have regular lunging sessions. However, I am concerned about the drawbacks of so much circling on the horse’s legs. And, I don’t have anyone to do it.

I wonder if one could lunge oneself in a round pen? I wonder if it might be dangerous - catch a foot on a bar? On my old horse, I used to drop the reins and see what I could do pseudo-lunging in the ring I do think it helped my seat (and indirectly my hands, since I developed more control with my legs and seat, and didn’t rely so much on my hands).

[hp1]

Moose, your comment about an educated seat got me wondering about improving mine.

I have a tendency to grip. Particularly if I’m not relaxed. You can imagine what it can do to my sensitive TB. Focusing on breathing seems to help. I’ve always heard riding without stirrups helps, but I’ve also read that its not helpful for someone who grips, because they tend to do so even more. So what’s a gripper to do? Does this make sense?

Any suggestions or comments are greatly appreciated.

[hp1]

THANKS DMK! And thank you Moose.

I tried the rotation exercises you suggested over the weekend in a lesson and out hacking. Very helpful. Your encouragement is appreciated.

[HN73]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bethe Mounce-Blasienz:
[B]<<All of mine go in a SOFT rubber snaffle, unless they have NO brakes at all.>>

Brakes and bit don’t really go hand in hand.

[/B]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, the bit does help you stop. You do use reins as an aid in steering and stopping.

Its not the only aid, I know that.

I was just trying to help.

[DMK]

hp - I have found a few good exercises to loosen the leg, and sit deeper. They are just simple leg calisthenics (now we can see if I can describe it any better than I can spell it )

When you first start riding, take your foot out of the stirrup and rotate your foot clockwise and counterclockwise (slowly and relaxed is the key), then rotate your knee - right knee clockwise from horse’s side (forward, out, back to horse’s side). Left knee is counterclockwise (it will make perfect sense when you are on the horse). Then rotate your hips the same way you rotated your knees - each time you rotate, your leg should naturally settle a little more under you.

I use these exercises to keep my leg under me, and settle more deeply in my thigh, but if you think about it, you can’t grip in this position. As you progress through your ride and find yourself gripping, go back to a walk and repeat at least the hip exercise - it will replace your leg in the proper position.

Another thing to do is to not try so hard to put your heel down - think more along the lines of settling your weight in your thighs and stretching your lower leg down to the ground.

[Wicky]

Thank you, baymare!

I love the feeling of a horse that is working on contact - we have a conversation.

This makes me wonder - I was playing with bits until my trainer told me not to. I found that he hated the Myler Level 1 that is sort rigid except for the swivel, but seemed to like the port. Maybe he has a fat tongue, or a low palate, and just sort of tolerates the nutcraker loose ring. I didn’t ride him enough in the ported bit, though (I took the reins and bridle off the hooks, but I think to be fair, I’d need a bit without hooks at all so it wouldn’t hang up at all).

I don’t know how to tell if a horse has a fat tongue or a low palate. Any suggestions? I guess I could look at the mouths of all of the horses in the barn, but I’m not sure they would like that much. How do you do it?

[Cactuskate]

Excellent perspective Inverness. But a word of caution. Do not take the path of not doing anything to increase your contact for fear of “doing something wrong”. If I have heard it once I have heard it a hundred times, My hunter doesn’t like me to take a feel of his face. Duh, and I bet he would rather not have you put that saddle on either, or go to the arena to work.

Experiment, take a feel of his face. Be prepared to endure the resistance. He will try his best to evade. But until he knows the feel and accepts it how will you ever know the feel?

I think we all tend to flatter ourselves by thinking we could ruin a horse in a couple of schooling sessions. I should have such influence on my beast. Like he pays that much attention to me at all times.

Don’t be complacent. So you confuse him, he’s a horse. Say oops, sorry and ask again. He will get over it. And it is amazing the things you can learn from him and your mistakes.

[Kellybird]

DMK–What a great exercize–I was just doing it unconsciously in my chair here, can’t wait to try it for real today.

Hopefully, I can maintain my concentration while mounted–I usually have a little trouble doing any sort of thing that requires brainpower–much better with the sit and wait kinda stuff.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hp:
THANKS DMK! And thank you Moose.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your welcome hp - don’t know when/where I first heard those exercises, and I had totally forgotten about them until about 2 weeks ago - just reappeared in my brain (which heretofore had been considered as “Space for Rent”). Guess I just must have known this thread was going to come along!

[Inverness]

I really got a lot out of GM’s explanation of the “give” of an educated hand in his recent COTH piece.

Tell me if I’m all wet, but it seems to me that a good rider must be constantly attuned to the delicate nature of his/her communication with the horse. One of the most challenging aspects of riding for me has been trying to gauge how much to take and give at particular times. It strikes me as a dynamic balancing act; always fluid, never static.

I think I’ve written here before that Billy tends to get fast and strong when jumping. Yet, he hates having a rider on his mouth all the time.

My difficulty is in determining how strong I have to be to get him to slow to my preferred pace without being a bully. I’m finding that I may have to be more forceful than I’m naturally inclined to be. I know I have the upper body strength to really cause him discomfort, but I don’t want to go that far to get my point across.

I’m also concerned that I may be telling him one thing with my uneducated seat and another with my uneducated hands. This is another reason I am hesitant to really take on the reins when he gets fast. It is also the reason that I wouldn’t want to use a stronger bit. I want to find the ideal balance by improving my riding and using the mildest bit I can.

I apologize for using this thread to do some thinking out loud w/o really knowing what I’m looking for in response. Suffice it to say I understand why GM states that developing educated hands takes a lifetime. I’m just afraid I don’t have that long . . .

[Skipper]

I went from riding a QHx that needed to be pushed up from your leg into a fairly strongish hold on the bit to get him in a frame to a TB who is a bit on the sensative side but was also heavy on his forehand at the canter for awhile and tending to rush his fences some. Too strong aids make him resist. So I had to wait to develop his hind
end muscling before I could expect a really balanced canter and had to learn to REALLY TRUST and GIVE after taking. It was hard but we have developed together and have a very good relationship now; it’s taken almost 2yrs. I spent a lot of time half-halting by squeezing in with my knee and thigh, saying whoa, taking a feel of his mouth until I felt a hesitation, then GIVING. And repeating etc. If I never tried, I’d never know how much to pull, for how long and how much to give and for how long before taking again. I think most horses are pretty forgiving of us and will trust us if we trust them and realize every time we ride, we both teach and learn from each other. What a great feeling when all the training comes together. Just recently at a show, my guy entered the ring a little tense as I started the opening circle, but as I gave a half halt about a third of the way around, he just melted and we had a lovely approach to the first fence. That whole day, we had alternating moments of him being nervous/tense and moments of him feeling putty and big sighs oh this isn’t so bad, just like at home. You don’t know until you try.

Sorry this is so long, but learning to trust and the right feel for this horse was a huge accomplishment. And only other horse-people could understand that…I quess the answer to the original question is to try different things and be patient and listen to Billy’s side of the converstion and the meaningful dialogue will happen.

[Spunky]

The part about elbows is so true! I am teaching our high school exchange student (she has been riding trail ponies for years and has good basics, but that’s it!) and hit upon the elbow thing myself a few days ago when trying to get a point across to her.

I am PROUD to learn today that it was taught by a master!!!

Also, you feel the horse’s mouth with your pinky finger, while holding the rein secure with your thumb. If you are doing “whole fist”, you will never be able to develop following hands.

[vineyridge]

Haven’t read the whole thread, but wanted to weigh in from a relearning rider’s point of view, relearning on a particular well trained horse, who is very sensitive to rein aids and wants to be on the bit lightly at all times.

I get him on the bit by the rhythm of my hands. This is VERY difficult and I had real trouble figuring out what the trainer was talking about until I decided that each gait had a different beat, just like music. The canter is a waltz, that’s three beats and a rest; the walk is a foxtrot, and the trot is a two step. Then I try and find his mouth and give him those beats with the last finger of my hands on his reins, as my hands are moving together with his head motion. My hands are very quiet, and I get impulsion from my seat and legs.

The notion that the contact between the horse and rider is like an electrical circuit comes from Mary Wanless. I can’t recommend her “Ride with your Mind” Masterclass enough. If you think of your seatbones as plugged into the circuit, you will begin to feel the long muscles of the back moving under you, and then your hands go with that motion.

Since I grew up on horseback, I’m doing more retraining than training, and so it’s easier for me.

If you are allowed to ride bareback, it’s absolutely the best way in the world to get balanced quickly. Try it, you’ll like it.

[HN73]

I have to totally agree with you on the bit part. All of mine go in a SOFT rubber snaffle, unless they have NO brakes at all.

One of the reasons I do this is because though I have been riding a long time, I still think I rely on my hands a little to much. It does take a lifetime, and then some.

Don’t think that the only way you can slow your horse down is by using your hands. Do some work on the longe line with no reins. You really can affect the speed and pace of your horse with your seat and upper body, but it can be tricky to figure out and takes lots of practice. One of my trainers used to make us ride with no reins and no stirrups, and try to stay on the rail.

Another thing that I find works for me is riding bareback. And I don’t mean just goofing around, but really riding. It will improve your seat dramaticly. Its, in my opinion, the BEST way to learn how to use your upper body over fences. Its also a great way to find out where you should be sitting. Maybe your horse is a little quick at times because you aren’t sitting in the best spot.

I hope this helps some.

[JAGold]

Jimmy Wofford, a believer in the true following hand, had great advice and excercises at a clinic about a year ago. He emphasized that the automatic release and the maintanence of contact throughout a jumping course comes from the elbows; that is, that the hands hold an even contact and finesse the bit, but the elbows open and close to accomadate the horse’s changing position. The hands hold the contact, and the elbows keep that contact consistent as the horse rounds and drops his neck over the fence.

To help us practice this concept, Jimmy Wofford set up a gymnastic excercise: relatively low verticles, 2-stride, 1-stride, 2-stride, and asked us to ride through in a two-point, paying particular attention to our contact with the reins. Contact was to remain even all the way through, so elbows had to follow the horse forward over the fence. Then, we jumped a series of low, very wide oxers to emphasize the horse’s bascule and the need for a following hand.

Hope this is of some use; I found the idea that maintaining even contact or a following hand comes from the elbows very useful.

–Jess

[Skipper]

BossHoss- Loved your analogy, very well put. You put the polish on my “explanation” especially the take part. Thanks.

[wadino]

Ok this might have NOTHING to do with this topic, lol, but I used to have to give and take a lot while jumping and cantering Rags because he had a realy quick pony speed. Before he went lame I had him going slow like a little hunter pony like he is, but then he went lame and forgot it. LOL. But I used to give, and take and I used to say that in my head and then do it. Like when you learn to post you say up down up down I said give, take, give, take…LOL

Ryan

[hp1]

Inverness,

I empathize with your feelings of not having a lifetime to learn the skills you want to achieve since I also started riding as an adult.

My trainer often talks about how much of learning is mileage in the saddle, and while I know she is right, in the back of my mind I see every year of mileage as another year older for me and all that that can mean. (fear, falling fortyish)

I find focusing on the process of improvement as a rider rather than my “final outcome” as rider to be helpful. (easier said than done. . . I tend to get impatient or frustrated with myself and that certainly doesn’t help matters.) I think this is part of what Dru is saying. (Which I found very helpful, thank you! )

[Rockford]

I have a tendency to brace my arm when a horse gets fast, and it helps me to be soft, yet still slow down, if I think finger-to-elbow, instead of just pull. Then my hands have a much better effect without causing tension…also make sure your thumbs are up because that makes your hand soooo much more effective. just my 2 cents
~Megan~