The good ones - BNTs

[LilyandBaron]

With the fall of CDJ, and a comment before the video came out by a poster that they would eat their hat if it was bad, made me wonder. If willing, are there BNTs you would personally attest to NOT abuse horses against eating your hat? I’ll expound on two key terms to bound inputs - BNT - maybe not big name but have produced horses and riders to GP more than once. And abuse - whew - basically if seen on video, they would be cancelled by the COTH hive mind, not just PETA.

I’ll start - Pierre Cousyn. He doesn’t compete much in recent years but so lovely and effective with every pair in multiple clinics and his personality - I cannot imagine him ever abusing a horse!

[Guyot]

You can never know what someone has done in their whole riding life to get to be that BNT. I’ve trained and shown thru GP in the last 12 years. Professional event rider before then. Been a professional for 22 years now and I’ve ridden with the best of the best… and while many get there, I’d bet my farm on the fact that somewhere in all of their riding was a bad day where they lost their temper or pulled the wrong tool and it went bad and looked horrendous. (They and myself and just grateful we learned before cell phones and social media… making mistakes is part of learning and I know im glad I did a lot of my mistakes “in private”)

That said it doesn’t make them bad people or even a bad trainer. To me what makes a good trainer is someone that has made mistakes and KNOWS why the tool they use to teach and train works on one horse and not the other. Or KNOWS when to move on to another tool when one tool is not going to get the right response. But you become this trainer by trial and error and questioning why you yourself is being given a tool.

It also requires the trainer to want to keep learning and find another way to teach the same thing. I know I can kick a horse forward and gallop and then use my seat and rein to package it. I want to learn to finesse this skill in a different way, so I seek out different instruction for myself now and I try new methods. Basically I don’t want to know one or two roads to Rome… I want to know all the roads. I want to train the QH, Morgan, WB and Draft to GP (I’m well on my way, but it hasn’t always been smiles and flowers)

I want to also add as ive been thinking a lot about this: a lot of us “older” trainers learned with a bit of a shut up and get it done method. It does take time to not revert to that when in a pressure situation. I’m actually happy I have the skill set to kick or smack a horse forward when they start to panic. I think for safety of myself and the horse that a good and fast smack or six may save both our lives. But that isn’t to say I want it to be my go to. I do worry about not teaching the next generation of horse people how to be gritty when the moment needs; that we are not setting them up to not be hurt or worse by not having the skill to get rough and tough on occasion when needed…. It’s a thought that does keep me up at night.

[Lunabear1988]

I don’t think putting anybody on a pedestal is a good idea. I think you just take what works for you and your horse and leave the rest. And I really believe that nobody knows the horse better than the owner/rider.

I think of some of the fallen trainers… I wouldn’t necessarily throw out all their experience or advice. I just won’t follow ANYONE, blindly.

[strangewings]

I think the language trainers/coaches use around this is really important. The good classical folks I have worked with describe aids as “invitations” to do xyz (reach for the bit, move off the leg, etc). The less good folks use much more “make him do it” or “get after him” or “don’t let him get away with that” language. It is a very slippery slope to take that language home with you and not let it play back in tough times.

Now, jumping/eventing I have ridden with good very kind and tactful trainers who use “kick on” language and the difference between them and the older fashioned “make him” types is that it is timed to break through to a psychologically frozen/stuck rider (me) and is not really about the horse.

(Edited to change typo “wtc” to “etc”. Horse people gonna horse people)

[mvp]

Cousyn will abuse a rider, though. And that’s a shame because I think he has a lot to offer.

[LilyandBaron]

Feel free to air here, but I’ve seen him in tons of clinics with a range of riders and nothing even close to that. Some riders were disappointed his instruction was on the basics they lacked, but he was tactful. I hope this isn’t true - would hurt my heart more than CDJ:(

[mvp]

I live in Aiken, where Cousyn does, and know some of his students.

Not sure how my data compares to yours. Not here to vilify anyone, just adding more data to what you offered.

[LilyandBaron]

Sad if true, to say the least. I saw him graciously deal with some very challenging personalities - as we know, we have some of those in our midst…. If want to PM, open to being convinced otherwise.

[Manni01]

Yes! Exactly this.

[Pehsness]

Why did I think you were in Ontario?!

I know the things I, as a youth and then AA, did that I’m sorry for, in hindsight. Nothing overtly egregious but nothing that, were it videoed and broadcast, would be considered ok now, 30 years on.

I have the excuse of ignorance where a professional doesnt/shouldn’t… but I’m finding I am far more disappointed then judgemental. I always thought the crap training was limited to the backyard local celebrities and that dressage was above the fray.

Coming from an AQHA background, I knew THAT world was littered with abusive BNTs. It’s sad to know it’s everywhere, even if it should have been very obvious.

[J-Lu]

Good BNT’s - these are people who won’t abuse horses.

Tom Poulin, Elizabeth Poulin, Ryan Yap, Carla Symader, Fred Weber, Ellie Stine Masek, Martha Diaz, Janet Foy, Stefan Peters, Lilo Fore.

I didn’t have a great experience with Catherine Haddad in her first clinic in America back in the day because I think she got very frustrated when my horse didn’t understand her parallel, instead of diagonal, flying change cues. And backing my horse across the arena multiple times (hard on hocks!!!) because my horse didn’t understand her cues new that day. She made my horse angry (4 days before Regional championships and f*cked them up). I never got so close to asking a BNT to step off of my horse as I did then. I’m sure she’s changed much in her clinic viewpoints of horses not trained to her specific aids these days. Oh, she also rode in the saddle she preferred without knee rolls without any consideration if it actually fit my horse.

[Manni01]

Unfortunately I only can add these two . Maybe the next Scandal… it was shared on FB last night…

[mvp]

Full disclosure: I don’t know enough about the “he said/she said” of how these “break ups” between Cousyn’s students and he went.

Frankly, I stopped at stories of fat shaming or somehow berating riders.

More disclosure. I have taught at brand-name universities. I won a prize or two doing that. (And, that success I attribute to horses–I had practiced teaching on those kind souls for decade before I was ever trusted with an undergraduate). I would have been fired had I shamed a student; plus, I have never, ever found that necessary. For man or beast, I assume everyone is trying their best. I know some people can’t teach, but if they blame students then they can get TF out of the profession.

And, if I may continue my rant, our industry is so badly regulated that the only way to have any say in how it goes is to vote with your feet or your wallet. IMO, too many people don’t like the ethics of their pros (sometimes with teaching, but more often with the business dealings)… and yet they pay and stay! I just won’t have that be me.

With all this background, you can see why I’m one of those consumers of horse training/teaching with high standards. That said, I’m good to teach: I am appropriately mounted. I have a reasonable amount of timing and feel. I can do as I am told on a horse. I have enough education in the horse world to understand why most good, orthodox pros are having me do as they ask me to do. If I don’t get it initially, I often figure it out as I do the exercise and the horse improves. I do my homework.

Also, I don’t think a pro should have to deal with “difficult personalities” in riders. If one pays to be taught, one should just take the lesson. And I think that teaching clinics is super hard! You have a very short time to figure out a new horse and rider, to make progress, and to do all of this in a nice, quick way, in public. Yikes!

I think there are ways for a good, invested, open-minded rider to productively collaborate with a clinician if they can see that the pro is really digging a bad hole with the horse. If you are running out of soundness or seriously running out of strength in the horse, stop and say so. Know that the pro who got farther than you with more horses than you is probably going to push you to the edge of your comfort zone; that’s why they are the BNT with their experience and success and you are not. If you don’t understand what the exercise is for, or what to reward, stop and say so. If you can’t find the thing to reward, the horse can’t either. But there’s really not a place for a rider to be anything but a trying student… just the way we want our horses to be.

I really appreciate the lighter approach to dressage that the French School brings. I think it offers a better deal to the horse and, not-for-nuthin’, recommends a way of riding that is physically easier. Cousyn is a great local resource! So some day, I hope I have the opportunity to discover that I am wrong about what I have heard about Cousyn or he has upped his pedagogical game.

[mvp]

@Pehsness

Why did I think you were in Ontario?!

I know the things I, as a youth and then AA, did that I’m sorry for, in hindsight. Nothing overtly egregious but nothing that, were it videoed and broadcast, would be considered ok now, 30 years on.

I have the excuse of ignorance where a professional doesnt/shouldn’t… but I’m finding I am far more disappointed then judgemental. I always thought the crap training was limited to the backyard local celebrities and that dressage was above the fray.

Coming from an AQHA background, I knew THAT world was littered with abusive BNTs. It’s sad to know it’s everywhere, even if it should have been very obvious.

Same. I think everyone who has tried to train a horse has, at some point, been unfair to them. And I think if one becomes a pro, that is an occupational hazard. I think that is true for the small-time person who, through lack of education, runs out of tools fast-ish and goes to violence. But I this current debacle reminds us all that it can also happen at the top where some other things are in play. 1. There’s a whole lot of pressure to produce results. 2. If you are getting horses to the limits of their talent (as might have been a factor floating around in this case), you are in the daily business of putting a lot of pressure on horses. That’s an ethically risky place to be; When are you running out of “try”? When are you running out of strength or conditioning? When are you running out of soundness? When are you running out of what that horse can possibly do, no matter what?

So one additional thing that is bumming me out is the “peanut gallery” who is not in this ethical crucible wagging their fingers at those who are. You know why I’m not being run up the flag pole right now? 1. I am amateur who never needs to get to the limits of a horse. 2. No one was video taping me.

While everyone agrees that we should not be pushing horses to the place where they must take a beating because they literally cannot do otherwise, most of us are not in the spot where we have to risk doing that. And we are judging those who are, conflating our righteousness with our safety.

[Annie_Burton]

Can you share a link?

[LilyandBaron]

Appreciate more context, and my heart is intact, as I cannot fathom him degrading anyone. With Aiken, plenty of options but if you like the French concepts, could try him yourself and see which report on his conduct is more accurate….

[mvp]

@LilyandBaron

Appreciate more context, and my heart is intact, as I cannot fathom him degrading anyone. With Aiken, plenty of options but if you like the French concepts, could try him yourself and see which report on his conduct is more accurate….

I watched him teach a long-time person on a too-bunchy Andalusian. (They didn’t make the horse bunchy… this came with him and they had long been trying to undo this). It wasn’t the best lesson to watch because Cousyn didn’t have to explain much; they had a long, good working relationship. And that type of horse doesn’t quite show me what I would learn with mine. But I would love to see him in the buffet event that is a clinic!

I always watch someone before I take a lesson. If I can’t understand what they are doing, I have no business bringing a horse to that.

[Bogey2]

C. Haddad is a nut case and I have passed on invitations to ride in her clinics. She is always trying to sell that Stuben Saddle as if that is the answer to all your prayers.

[Wind_Horse]

I’ve only audited 2 clinics over 4 days, but someone I’m really impressed with is Claudio Oliveria.
As a p/p specialist, he was fair, consistent, praised the horse and stopped when they understood and did what was asked. Even if it was less than the 45 minute lesson, he said, very good response, enough for today. Then as the horse was cooling out and walking for the remainder of the lesson, he recapped what transpired, how the horse reacted and thoughts for how they might approach the next day.
I would be so disappointed if this is not his typical self.

[Lunabear1988]

Growing up I had a trainer that I was just smitten with. I had left an abusive trainer, funny enough, one that chased me with a lunge whip a few times. This new trainer really pumped me up. I switched disciplines and she was so patient-kind while I was learning. She seems very caring for her horses. She had stallions that acted like geldings. She was a bit of a rescuer. I thought she was the GREATEST. She was accomplished in many disciplines. I even wrote an essay on her in high school.

Years and years later, she invited me to come work with her. I was to live with her and her kids while we ran the barn (mostly her breeding business but some boarders) and help her start a new feed store business.

I will say it was a real life changer for me. Let’s just say you don’t really know somebody like you think you do… Until you are around then 24/7. She’s not an animal abuser but she got a little lax on animal care and honestly child care and I was left holding up a lot of stuff for her. I learned things about her that I honestly didn’t need to know. Not all horse related but things didn’t always jive with the picture she presented to the public as a person.

I still cherish some of the lessons that she did teach me but over the years I’ve learned again and again that nobody is some saint.