She could have got a zero for the whole damned movement from every judge and still won the class. Do le math.
I have to admire how she just carried on, as if nothing happened. She’s really grace under pressure. She rode a lovely test.
[QUOTE=KristiC;3448120]
Ummm did you see the rest of the test??? Watch it again. Do you think that one mistake is going to lower every other great score. The test was beautiful except for the spook.[/QUOTE]
I agree, with the exception of some tension is some of the other movements, however, my point was not that her ride was bad, like I said, I love the horse, my point was that if it had been anyone but her or Anky, it would have severely reduced the score. To me, that is disobedience, isn’t that one of the major things dressage is all about? Same for Anky’s ride. I am actualyl more upset about Anky’s score than Isabel’s, Anky’s score was totally unfair.
I get that SLC and I don’t have a problem with it. She otherwise had a beautiful test. Do we know what the judges scored him for submission, because while she is amazing and he is fabulous, I don’t think he is as submissive as a lot of the less fabulous ones?
So Dressage is more similar to figure skating? Where a routine with brilliant jumps but a major fall will beat a routine that is really good but not as extreme?
There’s no reward for a horse that does it all right? I guess with the politics and all I thought dressage was similar to hunters. But a hunter that breaks stride (or heck, rears and runs backwards) will never beat a less-brilliant horse that trucks around - even with politics. I guess I learned my something new today.
[QUOTE=kkj;3448157]
I agree it was a beautiful test but I think his submission score should be dinged significantly. I do not think it was just a little glitch. What I see is a horse that wanted to get a lot more disobedient and a rider who is so skillfull that she kept him in control.[/QUOTE]
Exactly! How could she possibly get a decent submission score, with its x2 coefficient, after that blow up. Sorry, but that makes no sense.
No submission score is going to get ‘dinged’ much at all for a momentary brain fart in an otherwise 80% test! This is not a lady’s hack class or western pleasure and it is simply not judged that way! This is referred to as a ‘momentary instinctive reaction’ and these things just DO NOT KILL YOUR DRESSAGE SCORE. If it happened over and over, YES, but once, NO. Not in this time-space dimension.
I guess that’s why she wanted the jumbo screen turned off!
[QUOTE=slc2;3448114]
Yes, ridgeback, it’s always like that - for everyone. I have had moments like that in a class and it affected scores not at all - not in the least. It has been that way for everyone for a very long time - because it’s a basic, basic principle of dressage judging. She performed the movement. She recovered, she went on, it was fine.
This is not a western pleasure class, things like that are given very, very little emphasis. It was referred to in one judge’s seminar article as ‘a momentary instinctive reaction’. If the rest of the work is good, it is not going to be a major issue. For anyone. That’s all there is to it. She evidently lost some points for it, but simply not alot, and all your conspiracy theories aside, I think that’s exactly the way it should be.
Besides - I would bet anything she was on the road to get a 76 or even higher without that. She didn’t get that. And she got her lowest score from the German judge.[/QUOTE]
First I never said anything about conspiracy!!! A conspiracy would be if judges were making deals behind the scenes I was just pointing out that if riders had errors like that they would have been judged more harshly(JMO). Second the German judge DID NOT GIVE the lowest score…
He didn’t kick at them, just got too close and stepped on them.
I don’t think that was a momentary brain fart. The horse shows tension in the piaffe. He did in the first test too where he kicked out. He came above, threatened to rear and ran back. That is not a brain fart. That is a lack of submission. She is an amazing rider and did a very good job with it but it was a lack of submission.
As I posted before there are 38 scored movements. She blew one which would also effect the submission score but she also hit all the co-efficient movements, trot HP, EW, 1 tempi’s, canter P’s .
Sally
Sure it would have if they’d been aiming at 60’s or very low 70 something. Do you actually think that judges go back and change scores once they are written down and entered? Given the work both before and after the ‘spook’ or the tongue bite or whatever it was, do you seriously think that a test which was probably scored as mostly 8’s and 9’s could be lowered to a 60 something in good conscience and while maintaining fairness to ALL competitors?
I think when Courtney learns to take Mythilus to the limit, and when Courtney learns to calculate that this might cost 1 or 2 lesser scores she will be battling for Gold in London. Mistakes that you and me see with Anky, Kyra, Isabelle etc… are always mistakes in the so called “grey-area” . The riders mentioned are masters in earning the points where the points are.
On the other hand AND I MEAN THIS !! The USA should be very proud to have these two beautifull riders and horses, because these four are cleaning the way for the new generation to come. This new generation don’t have to put the USA on the map of the judges anymore, because Steffen and Courtney already did this for them.
Theo
Sigh… I am slightly disappointed but still optimistic that this Olympics is an improvement, because I think if you look down the order of placings there is more diversity there and more evidence of correctness being rewarded. However, it seems the medal hunt is still a bit skewiffy somehow.
On the subject of disobediences or breaks in gait, etc: at least in this country it is taken seriously and marked down. Obedience, forward impulsion and purity of gaits are paramount - however, WHY disobediences happen and how and where has a lot to do with the scoring - so you can’t make broad brush statements like it does matter or it doesn’t, and you must keep in mind that the GPS test is loooong with lots of marks and plenty of chances to move on and improve the overall average. Furthermore, the judges are seeing the test from lots of different angles and we only see one. Having said that, I guess I’m old fashioned… I like to see freedom of gaits and relaxation as a prerequisite for all else, and that’s not necessarily what I saw rewarded here today. I know some people say that sparkle or exuberance or what-have-you must be rewarded, and I agree - but I think that should come second to ease and harmony. (Some judges I know would agree with slc2 that this isn’t Western Pleasure or Lady’s Hack… but would say that in fact, submission and harmony are MORE important here, due to the battlefield heritage, and hence the separate coefficient score).
I do sometimes think that we need to decide whether or not dressage is truly a sport… if there is such a difference in ability between the world’s top three or four horse/rider pairs and everyone else, then it’s no kind of sport… the outcome is predetermined and unexciting. On the other hand, if there is a large-ish number of horses/riders of similar ability (say at least 10-15) then we should be able to get through an Olympics without being able to confidently predict the top two placings halfway through. Just my thoughts.
Ah, but the judges were not judging the first test today were they? They were judging what they saw presented in front of them today and today only.
How is this different from figure skating? IIRC from years of watching, if a skater hits the ice in any of their disciplines, he/she has pretty much lost all chance of a medal unless the other top skaters also fall.
In the final scoring why wouldn’t that have given IW damn close to a 0 on submission? And if it did (or should), how would that affect the total score?
[QUOTE=BLBGP;3448171]
So Dressage is more similar to figure skating? Where a routine with brilliant jumps but a major fall will beat a routine that is really good but not as extreme?
There’s no reward for a horse that does it all right? I guess with the politics and all I thought dressage was similar to hunters. But a hunter that breaks stride (or heck, rears and runs backwards) will never beat a less-brilliant horse that trucks around - even with politics. I guess I learned my something new today.[/QUOTE]
Don’t kid yourself it happens they just look down at their card real quick and act like they didn’t see them break…might not happen as much but it does happen.
[QUOTE=Bugs-n-Frodo;3448102]
Honestly, this is discouraging. Anky’s horse WAS uneven in some movements. Isabel was having a nice ride, I love Satchmo, but COME ON!!! This is so dissapointing to watch. If ANYONE else’s horse did that, you can bet the score would have been on the 60’s. What crap.[/QUOTE]
Anky’s horse broke to canter twice during the first trot half pass, and had zero engagement in the piaffe. Oh judges with blinders, and yet they have the gall to backstab other riders. Pathetic, I hope the US files a protest.
For those who are interested/intrigued by scoring dressage tests, I am sure there are “L” programs near you. Attend and audit. Find out what the judges are being taught. Give feedback on what you see and hear.
