The horse that rears and flips over backwards...

[Palm_Beach]

@Wayside

The clearest way for one of us to share this with you would be to grab you and try to jump off a bridge while carrying you when you asked for the time. However, none of us are horses that rear to the point of flipping so most of us would consider the repercussions for that unacceptable.

Not a good analogy at all. That would be like walking up to a horse and having the horse flip the second you reached out to touch it. In order to have the horse flip ON you, you would have had to have spent some time grooming, tacking, and probably more than a few minutes of riding before it happened. There will be signs that the horse is not handling the situation well.

From post 98:

“The rider did what many are taught is the only response - kick her to go forward. I know others mentioned that can also make them go higher, which is what happened as I watched from the horse I was intending to ride. I offered to swap horses, and got on the mare - again, I’d always liked her, and when she went up, just did a big opening rein to the side, and didn’t push her forward but kept leg resting on her so she couldn’t go backward. After three more tiny pop ups, she stopped and was fine. The person who’d bought her was actually there and witnessed it, and her trainer had made her “make” the horse go forward in a few scenarios where the mare was just nervous.”

That horse is an accident waiting to happen without proper training. The horse is nervous, so you kick it?

[BigMama1]

@Sandysmom

Palm Beach, if you think confirmed flippers can be easily fixed, I hope you have good health insurance and money put aside for long term care. A good funeral plan wouldn’t hurt either.

Isn’t Palm Beach the one who doesn’t need a helmet because he/she can simply train a horse not to be a horse and never spook, shy or trip? I think Palm Beach needs to write a book and share those amazing training methods with the rest of the world.

[Wayside]

@Palm Beach

Not a good analogy at all. That would be like walking up to a horse and having the horse flip the second you reached out to touch it.

The time frame and other details were deliberately left unspecified to encompass a wide variety of possible scenarios leading up to that event.

The feelings you’d experience from such a self-damaging and dangerous disproportionate reaction to that interaction would likely be similar in most cases. And even if you did something like call the tosser’s baby ugly, murder-suicide is not a normal response to a minor annoyance.

[Wayside]

@BigMama1

Isn’t Palm Beach the one who doesn’t need a helmet because he/she can simply train a horse not to be a horse and never spook, shy or trip? I think Palm Beach needs to write a book and share those amazing training methods with the rest of the world.

Quite so. In the meantime, I’m using this opportunity to practice remaining calm and dispassionate in the face of unreasonable objection. It’s a skill that’s very useful both in and out of the saddle, and I could use a bit of brushing up on it from time to time.

[Horseman15]

Does the horse percieve consequences of actions? They obviously do to some extent, because otherwise you couldn’t train them. But do they have enough forethought to consider, “I might get stuck in that mud,” or “If I rear and fall over on my rider, I could badly injure myself. But screw it, I’m doing it anyway.” It’s safe to say that a flipper has a different idea of self-preservation than the horse that doesn’t flip. Most horses would rather get along with the human than throw themselves on the floor. Who knows what goes through the mind of a flipper, or any horse, but that doesn’t change the fact that I don’t want to ride one!

Funny you say this. My buddy and I were just discussing an article about forethought in animals. Crows have enough forethought to save a too that could be used to get a small reward to use it later to get a bigger reward. I’m not sure how much forethought a horse has. Interesting thought though that could put this conversation in a potentially different perspective …

[beowulf]

IMHO “anthropomorphism” is an outdated term that needs revision in regards to animal intellect and emotionalism.

[Guilherme]

@beowulf

IMHO “anthropomorphism” is an outdated term that needs revision in regards to animal intellect and emotionalism.

I don’t think so.

There’s a pretty good book called Evidence Based Horsemanship by Peters and Black. One is a horse trainer and the other a PhD in neuroscience. They spend a lot of time discussing what happens in different parts of the brain and why not having those parts makes a difference between humans and horses.

Horses are not human and do not have the same capabilities humans do. The reverse is also true. What’s outdated is the romanticism that sometimes wafts through the equine world. We can, and should, know better than to pay attention to it.

G.

[Palm_Beach]

@Wayside

Quite so. In the meantime, I’m using this opportunity to practice remaining calm and dispassionate in the face of unreasonable objection. It’s a skill that’s very useful both in and out of the saddle, and I could use a bit of brushing up on it from time to time.

That’s a great start when it comes to working with horses who have issues. Add in heaps and heaps of patience and you are well on your way. Horses are a lot of hard work, and some horses are a whole lot of hard work. People get impatient and don’t want to put all the time and work into the horse, so they get on it and think they can ride it out and just keep the horse going forward, when that is obviously not the solution. So the horse gets labeled “dangerous” and thrown away.

[beowulf]

@Guilherme

I don’t think so.

There’s a pretty good book called Evidence Based Horsemanship by Peters and Black. One is a horse trainer and the other a PhD in neuroscience. They spend a lot of time discussing what happens in different parts of the brain and why not having those parts makes a difference between humans and horses.

Horses are not human and do not have the same capabilities humans do. The reverse is also true. What’s outdated is the romanticism that sometimes wafts through the equine world. We can, and should, know better than to pay attention to it.

G.

Respectfully, I disagree. Horses are obviously not human, nor do they experience the exact emotions humans do. However, they are capable of experiencing emotions and feelings.

Anthropomorphism, by definition, is applying emotion, feeling, thinking to an animal.

Not so long ago, people in the sciences used to say animals did not feel pain. That animals could not experience emotion. That animals lacked language or culture. That animals did not ‘think’ therefore were not intelligent.

We know none of that is true. Horses have undergone several studies that prove they are capable of more complex behaviors and thoughts than previously assumed: they are capable of several emotions previously believed to be limited to humans only: boredom, frustration, fear, pleasure. The even more fascinating thing is that horses can recognize these emotions in other non-horse species. If they can recognize an emotion, that takes a fair amount of understanding of the emotion, which is a fairly intellectual and complex process.

Other animals, like dogs and cats, are capable of these and more: jealousy, anger, insecurity, happiness, sadness, depression… Orcas and some dolphin species have incredible dialects, syntax, and culture.

So I do think that there needs to be a word, or some sort of term, that accurately describes the level of emotion/feeling that an animal might experience, dependent on its’ species, that does not detract from the animal by saying “these are human emotions an animal is not capable of experiencing”.

Animals have intellect. Animals have emotions. There should be a word for that, that does not denigrate the animal or the person attempting to describe the animal’s emotions/feelings.

[Dr_Doolittle]

@Caol Ila

It’s one of those philosophy of mind conundrums, where you’re stuck using English words anthropomorphising an animal’s experience because you haven’t got any other way to understand it and you don’t know what that experience is. You don’t even know what another human’s experience is, to be fair, because you can’t be in anyone else’s head.

Will an animal go to great lengths to avoid being eaten by a predator out of pure reductive Darwinian extinct, as though it’s nothing more than a computer program running an algorithm to preserve its genes? Or is there something more? Does the horse take pleasure out of grazing, galloping with its mates, working with its humans? Does it want to stay alive so it can continue enjoying those things? Even animal science is pulling well away from reductionism and coming up with all these studies showing some animals anyway experience emotions. Stuff people who work with animals already knew, but behavioural science had spent so long being stuck in Skinnerian reductionism that it was something of a paradigm shift.

I don’t think its fuzzy anthropomorphism to talk about self-preservation, and what seems plain to me, that some horses have more than others. I’ve seen one horse move cautiously over slippery footing, while its barnmate will go over it without caring. I’ve had my horse refuse to go up a trail where a mountain lion was (later) sighted, or hesitate if asked to go over dodgy ground. Once she refused to go where I was asking so our trail buddy went first and sunk above his knees in mud. Had a bit of faff getting out. I’m pretty sure my horse said, “Told you so!” That’s probably anthropomorphism.

We have all heard about blind bolters, horses who will run through or over anything without giving any fucks, while most of us have come across horses who might take off, but will at least keep themselves safe – and you if you can stay aboard.

I don’t think anyone can deny that they have emotions and some kind of cognitive process, and we’re stuck using our language, relating it through our experiences. That’s anthropomorphism, but if we agree that they have emotion and cognition, do we have any other way of talking about animals? Excise the language of human emotion, and we’re back to reductionism. But no one does that. Horse owners don’t talk in the language of behaviourism, nor to they reduce the horse to a collection of muscles, neurons and neurotransmitters. “My horse is experiencing lots of cortisol and other stress hormones flooding his brain as a conditioned response to his stablemate being removed from the barn.” Yeah, no one says that. They say, “My horse misses his buddy.” Or “My horse doesn’t like being on his own.” That’s attributing human feelings to the horse. But at the same time, it describes the behaviour in a useful way, meaning the horse owner’s friend or trainer (and the owner herself) can understand the owner when she describes her horse’s pronlem, and everyone will agree that the horse is having some kind of negative experience that he would not be having if his stablemate didn’t leave the barn.

Does the flipper care more or less about its safety than a horse who quietly accepts a rider? It’s arguable that it cares more, because if a mountain lion jumps on a horse’s back, it will flip on top of it as a last ditch effort. It’s also arguable that if a horse feels that whatever humans are asking it to do is akin to having a mountain lion on its back, something has gone very wrong. Perhaps with its head, because most domestic horses tolerate even bad riding without resorting to flipping.

Does the horse percieve consequences of actions? They obviously do to some extent, because otherwise you couldn’t train them. But do they have enough forethought to consider, “I might get stuck in that mud,” or “If I rear and fall over on my rider, I could badly injure myself. But screw it, I’m doing it anyway.” It’s safe to say that a flipper has a different idea of self-preservation than the horse that doesn’t flip. Most horses would rather get along with the human than throw themselves on the floor. Who knows what goes through the mind of a flipper, or any horse, but that doesn’t change the fact that I don’t want to ride one!

Excellent post – thoughtful and intelligent – thank you!

And great points by beowulf too…

[N_J_Eventer]

I agree with euthanize it. Some old cowboy trainers may be able to fix it, but don’e know of anyone today. That is the worse thing a horse can do. My old farrier in the 80’s trained one by putting a running W on it and dropping it to the ground whenever he started to go crazy. Inhumane by today’s methods. The horse was calm when I met him. I also heard of someone selling a “flipper” to someone without telling them. I felt she should be charged with attempted manslaughter.

[keysfins]

@Wayside

I’m reasonably sure that the rearing and the HYPP were related in my horse since the rearing often occurred along with other more typical symptoms of HYPP. And since walking forward is a generally a good course of action for both horses that are getting light in front and for mild HYPP attacks, getting him moving when it started was really the best call. He was N/H, so he didn’t collapse into full blown seizures, but he would do things like make strange respiratory noises, flash his third eyelid, and exhibit the weird jerky motions I mentioned before rearing.

The self preservation argument currently ongoing here seems to be largely semantics. Suffice it to say that he consistently behaved in ways which he probably had the capacity to understand would be detrimental to his own well-being. Not all of which had any apparent connection to the HYPP.

Bolded to ask, what is N/H?

[ladyj79]

@keysfins

Bolded to ask, what is N/H?

Heterozygous carrier for HYPP

https://www.vgl.ucdavis.edu/services/hypp.php

http://www.animalgenetics.us/Equine/Genetic_Disease/HYPP.asp

May or may not show symptoms. Should really be managed as any H/H horse though.

[keysfins]

Thank you, Ladyj.

[AltersAreUs]

@ecileh

Well, I can tell you with 100% certainty that cracking them between the ears with a hunt whip will NOT cure the behavior.

Depends on the horse. Miss Mare, in her younger years, decided to try rearing as an evasion when she wanted to get out of work. She’d decide we should be done and start bouncing little pissy rears. I’d boot her forward & back to work we’d go. Then one day, she decided to up the ante and went up proper.

My first instinct (and I’m not proud of this) was to crack her hard between the ears with a jumping bat while throwing my weight forward. Mare came down, stood dazed for a moment, then went back to work. She never tried even the little rears again.

To be fair, she was 5, only about a year under saddle and was just starting to push/test her rider. She went through the entire rapporteur that summer … bucking, bolting, refusing to move, screaming, jigging. Every week was a new trick. Miss Mare is a wicked intelligent thing, though, so she got through it all pretty fast and became an amazing riding horse. So while it’s not a guaranteed fix, it also did put a stop to that nonsense for me.

[Guilherme]

@AltersAreUs

Depends on the horse. Miss Mare, in her younger years, decided to try rearing as an evasion when she wanted to get out of work. She’d decide we should be done and start bouncing little pissy rears. I’d boot her forward & back to work we’d go. Then one day, she decided to up the ante and went up proper.

My first instinct (and I’m not proud of this) was to crack her hard between the ears with a jumping bat while throwing my weight forward. Mare came down, stood dazed for a moment, then went back to work. She never tried even the little rears again.

To be fair, she was 5, only about a year under saddle and was just starting to push/test her rider. She went through the entire rapporteur that summer … bucking, bolting, refusing to move, screaming, jigging. Every week was a new trick. Miss Mare is a wicked intelligent thing, though, so she got through it all pretty fast and became an amazing riding horse. So while it’s not a guaranteed fix, it also did put a stop to that nonsense for me.

You first instinct corrected the problem; what’s not to like or be proud of? Serious question, by the way.

Rearing is a very serious behavior that can get the rider dead and the horse crippled. If a whack between the ears solves the problem that I say “well done.”

Or, put another way, one good correction is worth 10,000 repetitions of “bad dog.”

G.

[AltersAreUs]

@Guilherme

You first instinct corrected the problem; what’s not to like or be proud of? Serious question, by the way.

Rearing is a very serious behavior that can get the rider dead and the horse crippled. If a whack between the ears solves the problem that I say “well done.”

Or, put another way, one good correction is worth 10,000 repetitions of “bad dog.”

G.

Because I like to think I should have been able to keep it from getting to that point. No one likes having to beat their horse, whether it was necessary in the moment or not. I do believe I could have gotten similar results if I’d had a bit more finesse in the rides and moments leading up to that rear.

[ladyj79]

@Guilherme

You first instinct corrected the problem; what’s not to like or be proud of? Serious question, by the way.

Rearing is a very serious behavior that can get the rider dead and the horse crippled. If a whack between the ears solves the problem that I say “well done.”

Or, put another way, one good correction is worth 10,000 repetitions of “bad dog.”

G.

My partner was an old latin cavalry officer; when a young horse got a little light in front, it absolutely got a judicious pop between the ears. I managed it one time, since the timing has to be impeccable. And I never had issue with that horse again. He went on to be the perfect amateur horse for two middle aged women. Still going, still safe, and a top solid citizen.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. If you can end an issue before it takes root, do it.

[beowulf]

the “pop with a crop” over the head is absolutely an appropriate response for some horses, and has to be very carefully timed, as ladyj79 said.

you need to know how the horse reacts to physical reprimand first, before you do it though. it works for 90% of horses because 90% of horses won’t retaliate when physically reprimanded… but for the 10% that do it can be really ugly. some horses will lash out aggressively if whacked with a crop and those are the horses you do not want to pop with a crop on. reason being because they see anything physical as a challenge and a horse will always outmuscle you.

i’ve done the egg method with really good results too. it’s hard to carry and if you have it in your pocket it will either get crushed pretty quickly or you won’t have enough time to pull it out and smash. if you carry an egg, you need to have it in your hand with you IME for the best timing/quickest results. another better solution is to fill a very small water balloon with warm oil and smash on the poll if they go up. similar sensation, less likely to break while handling but you have to really smash or it won’t burst.

the egg/balloon is the same idea though - don’t be doing it on a horse that will retaliate aggressively to physical correction.

also i am pretty sure the poster that was talking about popping with a wine bottle was joking/tongue in cheek. don’t do that. egg, water-balloon, or crop.

or better yet, let a pro handle it.

BTW, in my area, many BNTs will not touch rearing horses - i don’t blame them, their entire livelihood could be ruined in a moment. the pros here that handle them are cowboy types. they get the job done and we actually have a couple of really good horsemanship-type cowboys that don’t drink the clinton-anderson cool-aid but have very correct ways of doing things and can articulate the whens and whys in a way that makes it easy for people to take the lesson home/soak it in.

[ladyj79]

That is really the thing, to understand that there really is a 90%/10%, or even 99%/1%

I had one horse in that 1%. In four years, she got both me and a nationally ranked, highly regarded eventer who’s known across the country for developing young horses. I’ve told the story, but she eventually ended up with a bullrider trail riding because her trigger was “work.” When I brought students to clinic with said eventer a few years later, he asked me what happened with x? I told him I gave her away because I thought she was going to kill me. He said, yeah! I thought she was going to kill me too! I can tell you if I had popped her, she’d have gone over, because she couldn’t care less.

My partner, the latin man, took on a Riverman mare who was a known flipper. And he got to where he thought he had her “fixed.” Was doing a 1.30, mare stopped in the middle of the course and flipped over on him, put him in the hospital for weeks. He was lucky. But it taught him, after 40+ years in horses, that there were just horses that aren’t worth messing with. Maresy retired…to the breeding shed. Sigh.

I think your average horse owner will go their whole life without owning one of these horses, so I take some of these comments with a grain of salt. And as you point out @beowulf, not a lot of trainers will take these horses on anymore because they simply have a much higher risk of killing you than your average horse.