The horse that rears and flips over backwards...

Since horses know – on whatever conscious level – or learn that, 'If I do THIS (for rider or ground person) there will be no pain…but if I do THIS there will be pain.’…then it it safe to assume or believe that horses don’t want to get hurt = self preservation and the seeking of pleasure.

Ergo, a horse that – on whatever conscious level – does the THIS that causes consequential pain then I think you have a pretty agressive horse that ‘seems’ not to care about consequences. In their mind the THIS is the better option than obeying/performing what has been asked of them. Crazy horse or insensitive bullying human?

But again, I don’t think it’s a matter of not caring, nor is it a lack of self preservation on the horse’s part – because to say so means that horses understand exactly how detrimental or life threating (to themselves) a certain way of acting can be.

A rather philosophical discussion when you think about it. Horse that won’t cross bridge because it senses bridge is unsafe vs horse that won’t leave burning barn.

Question is: what do horses actually know? How do they actually decide? I think we all wish that horses knew fire could kill them because they’d decide to leave the barn.

HYPP info link for those who don’t know.

http://www.tsln.com/news/hypp-and-the-impressive-line-of-american-quarter-horses-the-facts/​​​​​​

God forbid you also fall on the broken glass. That sounds like a very dangerous thing to do!

“Looks like William Shatner had a horse rear and flip with him while driving in a class.
http://www.tmz.com/2017/07/26/willia…w-not-injured/

I watched that video. He had the horse at a halt too and didn’t seem to do anything to cause the rearing. BUT: The horse looked incredibly sweaty to me. When he halted, his front legs were splayed out at a weird angle. I think that horse was a flip waiting to happen. I also noticed that Shatner was alone in the class. Not sure what that was for.

Quoted parts I feel are particularly relevant. I briefly worked with a horse that was a rehab project and had been shoved in draw reins for months by his previous “trainer.” First ride (in a snaffle no gadgets, short, easy sessions focusing on just going forward) was positive, and the second ride went ok as well. But walking quietly back to the barn, he went up with me and then threw himself on the ground. He didn’t flip over on me thankfully, he went to the side. And yes, this issue appeared to be man-made with a misuse of draw reins. But the horse’s message was loud and clear that he would hurt himself to get out of what he perceived to be painful, even after some positive experiences.

I never threw a leg over him again, and advised the owner not to either. Horse was given thorough vet exams and a year or more later ended up being put down.

I’m all for working through issues, but flipping or throwing itself on the ground are not issues I’m willing to risk my life, or anyone else’s life for. It happens too fast and is too dangerous. A horse with a lack of self-preservation is scary to me. As someone else already posted, there are too many good horses out there to put your life at risk trying to fix a truly dangerous one.

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I’m reasonably sure that the rearing and the HYPP were related in my horse since the rearing often occurred along with other more typical symptoms of HYPP. And since walking forward is a generally a good course of action for both horses that are getting light in front and for mild HYPP attacks, getting him moving when it started was really the best call. He was N/H, so he didn’t collapse into full blown seizures, but he would do things like make strange respiratory noises, flash his third eyelid, and exhibit the weird jerky motions I mentioned before rearing.

The self preservation argument currently ongoing here seems to be largely semantics. Suffice it to say that he consistently behaved in ways which he probably had the capacity to understand would be detrimental to his own well-being. Not all of which had any apparent connection to the HYPP.

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Agree. The English language is impoverished. Greek has many more nuances/words – very difficult to translate into English as we know it.

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And I suppose it’s possible that I’m still giving him too much credit, intellectually. Maybe I should have said that he he consistently behaved in ways which most horses probably have the capacity to understand would be detrimental to their own well-being. I can’t guarantee that he had that same capacity, though again, the functional outcome is the same either way.

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On the other side of the fence is a county fair in full works. Horse probably saw something that blinkers previously blocked. He’s shown this horse multiple times previously with no issue. He wasn’t alone in the class just lined up on the opposite side of the judges stand which is in the center of the ring. Two entries were on the other side. Horse was fine, they untangled and hitched again. Bill still made his victory lap. :slight_smile:

I’ve been to this show many times. Its a blast, but tons going on. I took a friend that rides Dressage and she couldn’t believe we would show in such a loud distracting environment.

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Thanks, luvmyhackney. That makes sense. I know Mr. Shatner is an experienced horseman and I also know he really seems to love his horses. Glad no one was hurt, that’s always a scary thing to see!

The All Wisconsin Draft Horse Show takes place at the same time and venue as a county fair as well, so I can imagine how crazy that gets. They put the beer tent right next to the arena we were showing in. Pipe corral panel arena, so we could see and hear everything. During halter one year the judge was extremely slow and indecisive, and one of my competitors actually talked someone into getting him a beer during the class. When I drove in for Ladies Cart once, there was a band on stage right next to the in gate, complete with a dancing man playing the accordion. My horse at the time (not the rearing one) sort of cocked his head and looked at the guy, and that was about it. But there’s so much going on that you really have no idea what’ll pop out next.

Yeah, totally different from dressage shows, LOL.

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For what I know, English is a modern language and as such not as rich in vocabulary as older languages tend to be.
Many of the words in English are “loaned” from other, both germanic and romanic languages.
The vocabulary itself is not hard to learn, the phonetics is what is a killer for non-natives to the language.

In English, I found not everyone is on the same comprehension page regularly because of the confusion that can provide.
Happens in all languages, in English maybe just more common?

whereas I find English, as a borrowing conglomerate language, to have an overabundance of words since we’ll often have words with similar meaning but from different linguistic origins. Although I will say the Germans come up with the best words

https://support.google.com/websearch…224619375&rd=1

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Right also, today English seems to be considered the one of the indo-european languages with the most words because it keeps borrowing and inventing and adding more where needed:

http://www.vistawide.com/languages/l…statistics.htm

"Longest word in the English language:

pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconiosis (45 letters)"

That one would make any self respecting horse rear, I think.:lol:

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I took in a Paint mare a couple years ago that was known for “getting light” in front. When a tie down didn’t deter her they decided to sell her. Unfortunately, they didn’t disclose that what they thought of as “getting light in front” actually meant a straight up sky high rear that ended in flipping several times. First thing I did upon bringing her home was have a full vet check, dental, and chiro work up. When everything came back clean I started working with her. She would rear without warning no matter how forward you tried to keep her, and would rear, land, rear, land until she realized I was NOT going to get off like her old owner and reward her, and then she would just flip. The first time she did it I put her right back to work. She was good for a month or so and then flipped one day with very little warning. I broke my finger when she came up and somehow was still sitting stunned in the saddle when she got back up. At that point she lost her dang mind and bolted, trying her darndest to peel me off on a fenceline. I was done with her at that point as I have children and my own life to think about and I value my life more than a nasty tempered horse bent on killing me or herself just to avoid work. I got lots of unwanted advice-sell her as a broodmare (who would ethically breed a horse with this propensity? At least not me!), send her to an auction (why, so some unsuspecting person bought her and got killed?), or sell her with full disclosure and to a companion only home (why, till an idiot one day decides they are a trainer and gets on and gets killed or paralyzed?). I ended up euthing her. Kindest thing for the horse and anyone who would have possibly ended up with her in the future. Too many good horses out there to risk peoples lives.

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Horses don’t leave a burning barn because smoke looks like a solid wall to them, and it moves, making it even more disturbing looking. Their eyesight is very different to ours and they literally do not see things the same way we do.

Some posters are attributing human thought processes and emotions to horses, which is why they can’t stop the rear before it happens and why they can’t fix the problem.

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Personally (as is probably obvious), I find trying to put visceral base reactions into words challenging, and adding the non-human element in the mix makes those kinds of descriptions even more difficult. Given my horse’s limited vocabulary, I don’t think the words made a difference to him, though it does make transmitting my account of those experiences to other people more complicated. Since we as riders do so much with our horses by feel, I suspect I’m not the only horse person who struggles with this.

The clearest way for one of us to share this with you would be to grab you and try to jump off a bridge while carrying you when you asked for the time. However, none of us are horses that rear to the point of flipping so most of us would consider the repercussions for that unacceptable.

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It’s one of those philosophy of mind conundrums, where you’re stuck using English words anthropomorphising an animal’s experience because you haven’t got any other way to understand it and you don’t know what that experience is. You don’t even know what another human’s experience is, to be fair, because you can’t be in anyone else’s head.

Will an animal go to great lengths to avoid being eaten by a predator out of pure reductive Darwinian extinct, as though it’s nothing more than a computer program running an algorithm to preserve its genes? Or is there something more? Does the horse take pleasure out of grazing, galloping with its mates, working with its humans? Does it want to stay alive so it can continue enjoying those things? Even animal science is pulling well away from reductionism and coming up with all these studies showing some animals anyway experience emotions. Stuff people who work with animals already knew, but behavioural science had spent so long being stuck in Skinnerian reductionism that it was something of a paradigm shift.

I don’t think its fuzzy anthropomorphism to talk about self-preservation, and what seems plain to me, that some horses have more than others. I’ve seen one horse move cautiously over slippery footing, while its barnmate will go over it without caring. I’ve had my horse refuse to go up a trail where a mountain lion was (later) sighted, or hesitate if asked to go over dodgy ground. Once she refused to go where I was asking so our trail buddy went first and sunk above his knees in mud. Had a bit of faff getting out. I’m pretty sure my horse said, “Told you so!” That’s probably anthropomorphism.

We have all heard about blind bolters, horses who will run through or over anything without giving any fucks, while most of us have come across horses who might take off, but will at least keep themselves safe – and you if you can stay aboard.

I don’t think anyone can deny that they have emotions and some kind of cognitive process, and we’re stuck using our language, relating it through our experiences. That’s anthropomorphism, but if we agree that they have emotion and cognition, do we have any other way of talking about animals? Excise the language of human emotion, and we’re back to reductionism. But no one does that. Horse owners don’t talk in the language of behaviourism, nor to they reduce the horse to a collection of muscles, neurons and neurotransmitters. “My horse is experiencing lots of cortisol and other stress hormones flooding his brain as a conditioned response to his stablemate being removed from the barn.” Yeah, no one says that. They say, “My horse misses his buddy.” Or “My horse doesn’t like being on his own.” That’s attributing human feelings to the horse. But at the same time, it describes the behaviour in a useful way, meaning the horse owner’s friend or trainer (and the owner herself) can understand the owner when she describes her horse’s pronlem, and everyone will agree that the horse is having some kind of negative experience that he would not be having if his stablemate didn’t leave the barn.

Does the flipper care more or less about its safety than a horse who quietly accepts a rider? It’s arguable that it cares more, because if a mountain lion jumps on a horse’s back, it will flip on top of it as a last ditch effort. It’s also arguable that if a horse feels that whatever humans are asking it to do is akin to having a mountain lion on its back, something has gone very wrong. Perhaps with its head, because most domestic horses tolerate even bad riding without resorting to flipping.

Does the horse percieve consequences of actions? They obviously do to some extent, because otherwise you couldn’t train them. But do they have enough forethought to consider, “I might get stuck in that mud,” or “If I rear and fall over on my rider, I could badly injure myself. But screw it, I’m doing it anyway.” It’s safe to say that a flipper has a different idea of self-preservation than the horse that doesn’t flip. Most horses would rather get along with the human than throw themselves on the floor. Who knows what goes through the mind of a flipper, or any horse, but that doesn’t change the fact that I don’t want to ride one!

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Didn’t read every post, but saw many with points I agree with. I used to ride loads of sales horses. One was a lightly built mare in England, and it was the first ride on her at the sales barn I was riding for. We were in a Happy Mouth snaffle, and wanted to see if she had been taught to jump. We turned to go over a single pole on the ground between standards, and she started to run toward it when she saw the “jump.” I closed my fingers, and in that moment, she went straight up, and I remember cursing as I realized she had gone too high, and then I remember riding her later. I do NOT remember her falling on me, and I wasn’t hurt, other than an obvious concussion - my helmet was slightly cracked. The mare had obviously been chased to fences, and felt terrified I was trying to slow her down. She was a very sensitive mare, and I advised the barn owner restart her in hand with leading over poles, but they took her desire to run as enthusiasm and put a 15 year old on her to jump 4’ courses. I’m not kidding.

I rode another mare there that was sold but came back, and I had another person get on her to take her out on a hack. The mare had been delightful the other times I’d ridden her, and I had no awareness of why she had come back. When the other rider mounted, the mare went up a little bit in front. The rider did what many are taught is the only response - kick her to go forward. I know others mentioned that can also make them go higher, which is what happened as I watched from the horse I was intending to ride. I offered to swap horses, and got on the mare - again, I’d always liked her, and when she went up, just did a big opening rein to the side, and didn’t push her forward but kept leg resting on her so she couldn’t go backward. After three more tiny pop ups, she stopped and was fine. The person who’d bought her was actually there and witnessed it, and her trainer had made her “make” the horse go forward in a few scenarios where the mare was just nervous. I told the potential owner that if she couldn’t be calm and steady and strong for a nervous horse, this wasn’t a good match, but if she quietly stayed calm, the mare would be fine, and I think the girl ended up keeping that mare.

I do think there are mentally ill horses, and remember a trainer telling me once that horses trying to hurt you are easier to handle than ones so crazy they’ll hurt themselves, let alone you. I am too old to do what I once did, so rearing, and really bucking - not just feeling good as a youngster, are not going to be horses I buy. There are plenty of rescue horses that don’t have a death wish for their rider, no need to risk life/limb on the ones that are dangerous, no matter how they got there. Sad, but true.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax1P5DkjPwA I saw this wonderful documentary on Bill Shoemaker as an 11 yr old and the flip at 24:36 stayed in my mind every time I got a leg up on a race horse!