The horse that rears and flips over backwards...

[Wayside]

@Palm Beach

No, there is no difference at all. Probably why you can’t seem to fix the problem - you don’t understand what the problem is. Nor do several others.

If you fail to see the difference, I strongly suspect that you have never worked with or been on a horse that would not hesitate to literally kill itself in violent and awful ways rather than cooperate with a reasonable request. Not even in a blind panic or anything like that, I mean an animal who has self destructive fits where it truly does not seem to care if it lives or dies. It’s really not an experience that is at all similar to what one normally encounters in the course of training even difficult animals.

Even though I rode my rearing horse for years, I wouldn’t even come close to saying that I “fixed” him. As far as I know, there’s no way to install a sense of self-preservation in a horse that has none. He and I reached an understanding, I’m comfortable saying that I managed his problems successfully, we trail rode for years without a rearing incident, but he was never going to be fixed. That switch was always there, lying in wait. And I knew that if I made the wrong call he’d still go up and over. Or throw himself off the side of a cliff with me aboard. Or any number of self-destructive and dangerous behaviors.

He had another habit that was not as dangerous, but extremely disconcerting that I remember very clearly. Some of the trails we rode were steep in places, and had terraces in place to keep them from washing out. When Arlo (my horse) would go down those stairs, he would literally just walk forward, straight ahead, and fall until his hooves hit the ground. It would make my stomach lurch just like it would in an elevator that dropped too quickly. I have never sat on another horse that was so completely disinterested in his own safety.

It also bears mentioning that I was definitely young and dumb back when I was first training this horse. The best lesson I learned from him was that sometimes you just have to let things go. Some fights you can not win, some problems you can not fix.

[Ruth0552]

Years ago, a horse flipped on me. I broke my back. I don’t ride “problem” horses anymore. The horse that flipped on me had a confirmed rearing habit, but had been to 3 mos. professional training for it with a reputable trainer and hasn’t done it since. She actually had been going around bucking, and suddenly reared. The next day the owner was leading her to turn out and she reared and flipped again. Unfortunately, I heard that they moved the horse on. Had I been around, and not in the hospital, I would have told them to euthanize. I think some rearers can be rehabbed, depending on the circumstances, in terms of cause of the rearing- a harsh bit or a pain problem that can be resolved. But horses that have rearing as an ingrained behavior, for avoidance or whatever, should not be ridden.

[awaywego]

I had a horse flip on me very accidentally 20 years ago. It as a jump mishap - essentially, she had to rear up to get out of the mess, I slid off the back and watched her come down on me. Seriously traumatizing, watching the horse come down on you. Fortunately, the footing was rather deep so I just sunk into the ground essentially. Once was enough for me.

[SuckerForHorses]

@awaywego

I had a horse flip on me very accidentally 20 years ago. It as a jump mishap - essentially, she had to rear up to get out of the mess, I slid off the back and watched her come down on me. Seriously traumatizing, watching the horse come down on you. Fortunately, the footing was rather deep so I just sunk into the ground essentially. Once was enough for me.

I believe in my case of the OP, the man didn’t sustain any injuries or worse - die - because the footing was deeper sand. I’m certain if it happened on harder ground the outcome wouldn’t have been the same.

[Palm_Beach]

@Wayside

If you fail to see the difference, I strongly suspect that you have never worked with or been on a horse that would not hesitate to literally kill itself in violent and awful ways rather than cooperate with a reasonable request.

By definition, that horse does not exist, since it reacts so violently it is dead or badly injured. And if you rode a rearing horse for years and never fixed it, only managed it, by admission you did not understand how to get at the root of the problem, so just decided that it was a “switch lying in wait.”

[Wayside]

@Palm Beach

By definition, that horse does not exist, since it reacts so violently it is dead or badly injured. And if you rode a rearing horse for years and never fixed it, only managed it, by admission you did not understand how to get at the root of the problem, so just decided that it was a “switch lying in wait.”

Yes, yes he is dead.

You’re correct that I did not know how to get to the root of the problem, but I honestly don’t believe that it was something that could be done. I also can’t conjure up unicorns with my pinky, and you won’t find me beating myself up about that, either. Certainly he could not be fixed with training alone, though perhaps training following a cure for his HYPP would have done the trick.

In many cases it’s less about what may or may not be hypothetically possible, and more to do with what level of risk is involved in testing out your theory. And in the case of rearers with the potential to cause great bodily harm including the death of both horse and rider, I certainly wouldn’t fault anyone for not wanting to take that risk.

[Palm_Beach]

@Wayside

Yes, yes he is dead.

You’re correct that I did not know how to get to the root of the problem, but I honestly don’t believe that it was something that could be done. I also can’t conjure up unicorns with my pinky, and you won’t find me beating myself up about that, either. Certainly he could not be fixed with training alone, though perhaps training following a cure for his HYPP would have done the trick.

In many cases it’s less about what may or may not be hypothetically possible, and more to do with what level of risk is involved in testing out your theory. And in the case of rearers with the potential to cause great bodily harm including the death of both horse and rider, I certainly wouldn’t fault anyone for not wanting to take that risk.

HYPP is what it is and no amount of training can change it. If that is the cause, then so be it. If not, then the root of the problem can be addressed. No one is blaming you because the genetics of the horse killed it.

[Guilherme]

@Palm Beach

By definition, that horse does not exist, since it reacts so violently it is dead or badly injured. And if you rode a rearing horse for years and never fixed it, only managed it, by admission you did not understand how to get at the root of the problem, so just decided that it was a “switch lying in wait.”

I’m going to disagree with you, here.

A horse has reaction times roughly 40x faster than a human. Meaning that if one decides to go they will be gone long before most folks can stop it, or even bail out. I noted the death of Malcolm Baldrige, SecCommerce under Reagan. He was an experienced rider (former rodeo cowboy) and died when his sternum was fractured by the horn on his Western saddle.

At a Cavalry Competition in San Angelo, TX I watched one of our senior chaplains (another ex-rodeo cowboy and very competent rider) go “out the back door” when his horse balked at taking a step backward during the Military Horsemanship event. One second he was stock still with his feet planted and the next he was vertical. He didn’t go over (and I’m not sure why). The rider ended up unconscious for about 30 sec. (not good in a 60+ year old male).

Not every horse who violently goes up and over gets injured, much less dead. Some, here, have noted that once was enough for them and they never did it again. Others have noted that the behavior repeats. Clearly if the horse scared the bejesus out of itself and never did it again that’s one thing. But how do you know that this is a one off event or the start of a vicious behavioral pattern? I don’t know.

Certainly an owner might choose to evaluate the behavior and correct it. But sometimes even that can be a questionable decision from the owner’s point of view. What’s sensible for teenage rider in this circumstance might be monumentally stupid for a senior rider on the shady side of 70.

How much risk is worth taking in these situations? It depends.

G.

[Palm_Beach]

@Guilherme

I’m going to disagree with you, here.

A horse has reaction times roughly 40x faster than a human. Meaning that if one decides to go they will be gone long before most folks can stop it, or even bail out…
How much risk is worth taking in these situations? It depends.

G.

I’m going to disagree with you here. There absolutely will be warning signs. It has nothing to do with how well you ride, but how well you listen to what the horse is saying.

And I was commenting on the following quote, which is self explanatory. You took my quote out of context.

“If you fail to see the difference, I strongly suspect that you have never worked with or been on a horse that would not hesitate to literally kill itself in violent and awful ways rather than cooperate with a reasonable request.”

[ecileh]

@Wayside I’d be interested to know more about how you think the HYPP factored into his tendency to rear. I don’t know much about the disease, but I thought it mostly presented as muscle paralysis?

[Guilherme]

@Palm Beach

I’m going to disagree with you here. There absolutely will be warning signs. It has nothing to do with how well you ride, but how well you listen to what the horse is saying.

And I was commenting on the following quote, which is self explanatory. You took my quote out of context.

“If you fail to see the difference, I strongly suspect that you have never worked with or been on a horse that would not hesitate to literally kill itself in violent and awful ways rather than cooperate with a reasonable request.”

I agree that there will be warning signs. And since the horse is 40x faster than you then you might not have any reasonable hope of countering the horse’s movement.

The one I personally witnessed at San Angelo had one sign: the horse planted it’s feet. No ears back, no “front end lightness,” nothing but non-movement. Then straight up. This horse was the chaplain’s usual mount and had been at Competitions since at least 2006 (this was in 2012). This behavior had never been expressed before.

In the gaited horse world, at least with North American breeds, rearing is much more common than bucking. If you go into a lot of old time Walker barns you’ll see eyebolts set in the concrete floors of many cross tie areas. They are there for a reason.

One old time poster I know used to frequently observe that the horse who kills you will warn you first. I agree. Thing is the warning may not come soon enough for you to act.

G.

[danacat]

@Wayside

… a horse that would not hesitate to literally kill itself in violent and awful ways rather than cooperate with a reasonable request. Not even in a blind panic or anything like that, I mean an animal who has self destructive fits where it truly does not seem to care if it lives or dies.

…I have never sat on another horse that was so completely disinterested in his own safety.

Not wanting to argue here. …I’m just doubtful that horses have the ability to decide if they care or do not care if they live or die. In other words, a violent reaction IMO, equates fear = self preservation which is an instinct in all creatures.

Conversely, when a horse ‘gives up’ and just lays there like in a human caused abuse situation where the offender seemingly has broken the horse’s spirit…again this is – IMO – a prey animal reaction to predator when flight or fight is not available. Those Instincts shut down and are replaced by the surrender instinct which is either self preservation in and of itself, or it’s the instinctual surrender…to death.

Side bar: ​​​​​​If the horse you mention in your post was your HYPP postive horse, then it makes sense that genetics are the cause of this particular horse’s behavior rather than its disinterest in its own safety.

I also believe that ‘self-destructive fits’ and other similar descriptions, are purely ‘human’ assignments. If horses could talk they would not explain it like that at all. There is always a reason for a horse’s behavior – rearing included.

And some people dedicate their ‘horse time’ to finding the reason & solving the behavior…others don’t have the skills nor the time nor the desire – life is too short. So, to each his own… and with good reason in each scenario.

[Bluey]

Decades ago, we needed a pony horse for the track.
This dealer had a big sabino paint he brought for us to try out.
He made a wonderful horse for us for years.

The trader had this little grey arabian looking half paint in the trailer, maybe 14.1 hands tiptoeing.
When I asked about him, short as I am, a short horse always caught my eye, he said he was seven and on his way to the slaughter plant, 40 miles away, because he had been rearing and the last owner was in the hospital after he flipped on him in the roping box.

Being very young, I wanted to try the horse anyway.
The trader didn’t want to let me, but finally agreed to let me try right quick.
We had a bull we needed to gather so I rode that horse to get him and he was a star, worked like a pro.
The trader still didn’t feel comfortable, told me not to pay for him, just try him for a bit, but be careful.
That horse made my #1 cowhorse and pony horse at the track, small as he was, as he seemed to quiet unruly horses and got along with everyone best we ever saw.
When we bought our next stallion, a race bred yearling, we had him in a pen by the gelding’s pasture.
That little horse, when we fed the pasture first then the colt, he would pick up one flake of alfalfa and take it and hand it to the colt over the fence.
When we turned the colt out with the geldings, he looked after him, that is the kind of horse he was.

Next time I saw the trader and tried to pay for him, telling him how super nice he was, he kept putting me off, said he was glad he found a home.
I don’t think I ever paid for him.

I was very careful never to let anyone else ride him, but he never, not once, acted like he wanted to rear.

Before that horse, while in another stable, we bought a beautiful OTTB mare to make a hunter/jumper out of her.
We turned her out first to let down from the track.
After a month, we put her in and started longing her.
While longing, she would go around perfectly fine, then without stopping just flip completely over.
Boy, was that a surprise to everyone.
The vet came out, checked her over, could not find anything wrong.
We longed her for him and sure enough, after a bit, she again flipped so fast you could not hardly see what she did, unlike horses that truly rear and teether up there before falling over.
The vet said that he had known a few horses like that and they had a history of having encephalitis, EEE or VEE and it was some kind of brain damage.
She was turned out and made a broodmare.

I think that when we talk about horses rearing while being ridden, a terribly dangerous situation for horse and rider, we may ought to determine why the horse is rearing, before saying more.
There is not one size fits all on this.

[Kwill]

I don’t know what it is about HYPP that makes a horse act strangely, but I had one and she would rear in side reins and tangled herself up in a trailer pretty badly once. It seemed to be some kind of reaction to claustrophobia, not sure. She had seizures as well. I bought her as a weanling (this was in 1980, didn’t really know about HYPP as much then). She seized as a coming two year old in the stall one night and died (I was out of town at the time, poor barn owner had to call and tell me). Probably just as well, since I think riding her would have been very dangerous. HYPP horses just have brain issues, maybe?

Not trying to derail here, the HYPP was never diagnosed but in hindsight I am sure that’s what it was. Both her dam and granddam had died young of some mysterious disease they called “a heart attack”. I was a dumb teenager at the time. But back on topic.

You can’t fix a flipper, and since the majority of riders in the US at least are amateurs, flippers should not be in the marketplace as riding horses. It’s just too dangerous.

[beowulf]

@danacat

Not wanting to argue here. …I’m just doubtful that horses have the ability to decide if they care or do not care if they live or die. In other words, a violent reaction IMO, equates fear = self preservation which is an instinct in all creatures.

Conversely, when a horse ‘gives up’ and just lays there like in a human caused abuse situation where the offender seemingly has broken the horse’s spirit…again this is – IMO – a prey animal reaction to predator when flight or fight is not available. Those Instincts shut down and are replaced by the surrender instinct which is either self preservation in and of itself, or it’s the instinctual surrender…to death.

Side bar: ​​​​​​If the horse you mention in your post was your HYPP postive horse, then it makes sense that genetics are the cause of this particular horse’s behavior rather than its disinterest in its own safety.

I also believe that ‘self-destructive fits’ and other similar descriptions, are purely ‘human’ assignments. If horses could talk they would not explain it like that at all. There is always a reason for a horse’s behavior – rearing included.

And some people dedicate their ‘horse time’ to finding the reason & solving the behavior…others don’t have the skills nor the time nor the desire – life is too short. So, to each his own… and with good reason in each scenario.

perhaps a better way to phrase it is “a horse that does not care if he causes himself immeasurable harm”.

like you, i don’t necessarily believe that horses are afraid of death. however, they are deeply afraid of pain. it is instinctual for them to fight or flee from pain. most horses will not put themselves in harm’s way, or in a painful situation, just to avoid a little work.

IME and honest opinion here, there are not many horses who are truly wired wrong - but you better be careful of the ones that are.

i agree with G that horses react so quickly, far faster than us - they are too big and too powerful to take a gamble on a horse that is known to cause himself bodily harm to escape a situation.

one of the mares that i rode as a teen was a flipper. she had flipped in the past on my then-trainer, who then tried to lease her out to a few of the capable riders at the barn. i catch-rode her for a bit while trainer was in FL on the winter circuit. the mare had a history of flipping on the cross-ties as well. she never flipped with me, thank god, but she did try many times to rear. i got her going pretty well and she went to one of the trainer’s YRs down south. knowing what i know now i do think she had some serious cervical damage and possible muscle myopathy, but CA was not really known when i was younger, nor was PSSM, HYPP as well researched. some things caused such explosive reactions in her - pulling her mane, tightening the girth, trying to draw blood, etc. any amount of pressure usually elicited extremely violent reactions. the really sad thing about this mare is that she actually killed herself in the paddock a few months after she went south - she managed to get herself stuck between the concrete trough and the fence and basically degloved herself from her neck to her ribcage and had to be PTS. just my opinion, but i do think her lack of self-preservation was what killed her - i think a normal horse would have realized it was stuck and given up.

and that’s the difference IMHO between a horse that doesn’t want to get hurt and a horse that doesn’t care if it gets hurt.

[SonnysMom]

Looks like William Shatner had a horse rear and flip with him while driving in a class.
http://www.tmz.com/2017/07/26/william-shatner-flipped-over-horse-buggy-show-not-injured/

[Foxtrot_s]

You get a glass bottle and when it goes up you brake the bottle over its head…that’ll fix it.

[SonnysMom]

@Foxtrot's

You get a glass bottle and when it goes up you break the bottle over its head…that’ll fix it.

Wait, I thought it was a raw egg?

[ecileh]

@SonnysMom

Wait, I thought it was a raw egg?

Well, I can tell you with 100% certainty that cracking them between the ears with a hunt whip will NOT cure the behavior.

[Mondo]

I thought it was a raw egg too. I certainly wouldn’t want to deal with the aftermath of a glass bottle! I bet that would cure the rearing! God knows what other horrible vices would come from it.