I’m almost embarassed (OK, I am embarassed) to admit that I am only vaguely aware of the reasons behind the continuing warfare in the Middle East between various countries and factions, as well as the intense hatred some groups have for the US. Can anyone coherently and succintly explain?
that this thread will disentegrate into a partisan discussion.
Nevertheless, my reading of history causes me to add that before the British began to incite discord around the time of WWII, Jews who moved into Palestine were welcomed by the Palestinians. Jews did buy land from whomever the British documentation said owned the land. Much mutual benefit resulted from the importing of new technology. Many British were anti-Semetic (the army, for example, didn’t even want Jews fighting on their side during WWII) and they fomented discord (Semite against Semite) in order to keep control of the region.
During the massive relocations that occurred around the time of the creation of Israel, Arabs were encouraged to leave Israel in preparation for a triumphant return march as an army, to throw the Jews into the sea. Jews were forced out of Syria and other Arab lands, where they had lived for generations, and no compensation was given for their loss of property. Jordan was supposed to have been the Palestinian sector, but this was not accomplished.
Now, there is a large number of people who do not have education or a means to better themselves, and whose leaders maintain their power base in the international community by encouraging uprising. Otherwise, who would really care about Arafat and bin Laden? Add to that, a religion that, WHEN PERVERTED lead people to believe that the most certain way to heaven is by acts that terrorize, you get this kind of tragedy. Please, I am NOT attacking the teaching of Islam, just those who pervert it for their own benefit.
I will not say that Israel is always innocent. But, the type of terror we’ve just experienced is what they live with every day, on a smaller, but more constant scale.
I pray for a solution, but I do not see one.
[This message was edited by Wicky on Sep. 12, 2001 at 04:45 PM.]
It’s also important to remember that Osawa bin - Laden is only one person - it is believed that he has thousands of people (not to mention some sort of State support) behind him. Many of the factions within are independ of him - but follow his “teachings.”
There is also the chilling possibility that Osawa has been used as a so-called “marketing tool” to divert attention and blame away from the true State or mastermind and financial sponsor behind this particular fanatical group.
It is all so complicated …
Have we done less damage in the name of Christianity?
What I find so devastating is that if not for that one moment in time all the Palestinians would be Jews. But for one other moment in time Jesus who was a Jew might have simply reformed Judaism and all Christians would also be Jews.
How then can all the descendents of Abraham be so vicious in their individual views. Yes! it is closely related to the war between the Protestants and the Catholics. Luther reformed Catholicism, yes a simple dispute over the Pope. If you asked either side if they were willing to die for the Pope, what would they answer?
The Book of Revelations written by Josephus forecasted a battle between all the nations of the world on the plains of Armegadon that is in Israel. Nostrademus forecast that in the ninth month of the first year of the millennium a fire would come out of the sky and change the world. This is the first year of the milliennium and it is September. The year 2000 was really the last year of the last millennium.
There was a lady today interviewed on the TV a very religious Muslim lady. And she said but there are bad people in your country please don’t blame me if there is a bad seed in Islam.
Was this all cast in stone some time ago or are we the masters of our fate. Our forefathers came here because they were Protestants and not welcome in the European Vatican world.
My question is do we have the ability to locate and eliminate the “bad seed” without compounding the errors of our ancesters? I’m listening to the thunder rolls outside and I wonder about those who may have survived and are not yet free laying there in the dark being rained on feeling abandoned.
Nationalism and Religions make us feel good, we can pass our doubts on to something else but what damage both these concepts have caused.
There is an essay by PJ O’Rourke (who is a reporter/commentator/humorist for Rolling Stone with somewhat conservative leanings) called
“Our 2,000 Year Old Middle East Policy Problem” outlining the problems the Romans had in controlling the same region way back when. Pretty much a whole bunch of Christians, Jews and Muslims trying to kill each other and the Romans.
It was either funny, or depressing, depending on how you looked at it.
is usually only the “excuse” or surface reason.
Money, power, land, and ethnic identity are usually the “real” reasons (for instance, consider the crusades).
Since we are discussing this…
Osawa bin Laden and many of his followers were originally recruited by American intellegence to fight the Soviets when they invaded Afgahanistan in '90. He and many others were trained in guerilla warfare by Americans and set upon the Soviets by the ethnic minority. After the Soviet defeat, and after the Afgahanistan Civil War, Osawa bin Laden gained support from the ethnic majority, the Taliban and has been leading the fanatical left ever since.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brilyntrip:
If we demand that Afghanistan hand him over and they don’t what are we supposed to do? Send in troops ?declare war on AFGHANISTAN? Any students of European History remember what started WW1.The frustration our leaders must feel is tangible to me .If there is a way to get him surreptitiously I am sure it will be done .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Interestingly enough, I just read today that the Afghanistan (Taliban) ambassador to Pakistan said the they’d consider extraditing Osama bin Laden if they were provided proof of his involvement. I can’t say I buy it…I think they are fearing US retaliation for harboring Bin Laden, despite claiming retaliation from the US would increase further hatred for the US as well as provoke more suicide attacks.
I agree this is a toughie for our government; the Taliban are frantics, and they certain do not bend easily to international pressure and sanctions…the bin Laden issue aside, the destruction of the ancient buddhas earlier this year for example, not to mention their treatment of women.
I had the opportunity to travel in the middle east and to stay at a hotel on the Gaza strip before all this happened. A young man who was a muslim and I had several opportunities for talks and his analysis is worth considering.
It takes us back to the real beginning. Sarah who was Abraham’s wife could not have children. In the custom of their time she sent in her Ethiopian servant to get pregnant by Abraham. The lady did get pregnant and gave birth to Ishmael who was the first born son of Abraham. When God decided that Sarah should have a child in her old age Sarah wanted to protect the inheritance of her son as being first born so to inhert all of Abraham’s properties. She sent the Ishmael and his mother into the desert where they might have died to eliminate the challenge to the estate.
For 4000 years they have been fighting over the estate of Abraham. The Islamic religion was started by Mohammed to prove that God favored Ishmael. Everything for the past 4000 years is just a reaction to this difference of opinion.
You hit me! I’ll hit you and an eye for eye philosophy.
why the odd spelling…In all my research and reading up on the subject I have not ever seen Osama bin-Laden referred to as “Osawa”…I thought you were making a typo, but you seem to be sticking to it…
FYI:
Osama bin Mohammad bin Laden was born c. 1957 in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. As the son of a self-made construction billionaire, he inherited a large fortune. The same year that he graduated (1979) from King Abdul Aziz University in Jiddah, the Soviet Union invaded Afghanistan, and bin Laden, a devout Muslim, traveled there to aid the mujahideen in their jihad (holy war) against the Soviets. He recruited many of the so-called Arab Afghans–volunteer resistance fighters from the Persian Gulf nations–to aid the U.S.-backed mujahideen fighters. Drawing from his personal wealth and funds raised from other wealthy Muslims, he also financed training camps. By 1991 bin Laden’s hatred of the United States had crystallized; he viewed the U.S. troops stationed in Saudi Arabia during the Gulf War as armed infidels and denounced the House of Saud for allowing the troops into the country. In 1991 the Saudi government expelled bin Laden (he was deprived of his citizenship in 1994), and he fled to The Sudan, where he operated several businesses and also, reportedly, a number of clandestine terrorist training camps. The Sudan forced bin Laden to leave in mid-1996, and he returned to Afghanistan, where he allegedly established at least two training facilities, including one that the U.S. termed a “terrorist university.”
Several weeks after the embassy bombings, the U.S. fired missiles at bin Laden’s “terrorist university” in Afghanistan and at a Sudan pharmaceutical plant thought to be manufacturing nerve gas on bin Laden’s orders. He continued to deny his involvement in terrorist activities. The U.S. charged bin Laden with inciting violence against American citizens and requested his deportation to the U.S. to face trial. By year’s end, however, Afghanistan’s ruling Islamic militia, the Taliban, had said that bin Laden was a guest in their country and that he would be prosecuted in Afghanistan only if the U.S. could supply convincing evidence of his involvement in terrorist acts.
"Bin Laden, Osama"�Encyclop�dia Britannica
<http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?eu=135782&tocid=0&query=osama%20bin%20laden>
[Accessed September 14, 2001].
[This message was edited by M. O’Connor on Sep. 14, 2001 at 06:31 AM.]
Living as I do in the Middle East, I want to say that there isn’t a nutshell in the world big enough for all the local nuts. And as an Egyptian friend of mine says, “Moses was here, and he couldn’t fix it, Jesus was here, and he couldn’t fix it, Muhammed was here, and he couldn’t fx it, now you think YOU’RE gonna fix it?” But the sad truth is that the Israel-Palestine tragedy is just one of the many blood feuds going on here, and actually not even the bloodiest (check out Iran-Iraq sometime!). And if the attack on the US was in fact Islamic fringe terror, the Islamic fringe hatred of America (the Great Satan) is not just based on the support of Israel (the Little Satan), but on a hatred of the whole Western, modernized, feminist, technologically advanced culture that dominates the world and seduces Muslim youth. Let’s face it, there’s a LOT more immigration traffic from Muslim countries to the USA than the other way around! Osama bin Laden’s (may he rot) original beef with the US was actually the presence of Western troops on Saudi soil during the Gulf War, which was pollution or something. (I get this from Arabic-speaking analysts who get it from Osama bin Laden videos, which are apparently chart-busters in some parts of the world).
Go Figure.
–s.
1 Like
This thread has some of the best information I’ve seen yet from people who have been there. Everybody’s gotta read this.
I see “M” and type “W” since "W is an upside down “M” I’m mildly dyslexic. And I seem to be too old to retrain those fingers 
on the keyboard. Now when I reread the name, I don’t even see it. To me it looks right. My apologies - my assistant complained about this bad habit for years.
Every time I come to this topic I am reminded of something a professor t American University said in class at that time .Now this was like oh over twenty years ago .But it was the first time US experienced the gas lines oil embargo.He said the next area of the world will be the MIDDLE East because of rich oil fields blood feuds between small oil rich countries.I remember thinking to myself at the time ( man why does he think all those little countries over there with no armies will be so important in the grand scheme of things?).No whow smart was he ? How niave(sp?) was I?
[This message was edited by brilyntrip on Sep. 13, 2001 at 10:47 AM.]
I’m still a little tiny bit confused. Are most Israelis Jews and are most Palestinians Muslims?
The CIA denies recruiting arabs (in general, Bin Laden in particular) to fight in Afghanistan - they say that their role was to aid the afghani people already fighting.
Who knows what the actual truth is.
I’m almost embarassed (OK, I am embarassed) to admit that I am only vaguely aware of the reasons behind the continuing warfare in the Middle East between various countries and factions, as well as the intense hatred some groups have for the US. Can anyone coherently and succintly explain?
As some people have noted this is a religous based argument and is not limited to Israel/Palestinians. There are many factions of multiple religions in the middle east. So you can’t say that it is a case of muslim vs jew or islamic vs christian. Almost ALL of the religious groups there have more conservative and militant factions that believe that they hold they keys to heaven (or their equivalent).
When these factions come into power (e.g., khomeni, the Taliban, etc.), they’re more fundamental religious views are substituted for law and they use the presence of the US (and other western countries) as the great enemy to rally around. We are painted as evil and heathens.
It is really unfortunate to see people use religion this way. If you read the great books of most religions you will see a striking similiarity in the core values. It can also be said that the majority of most religions are not in alignment with the fringe groups.
The US has always had a confused policy because we don’t understand how people of different religious faiths can fight over religion. We also have a problem with this area because we have used the Muslim/Islamic groups as rallying points and have created the image of the fanatic Muslim as nothing more than a terrorist.
If you have people fighting over geography, you can solve the issues. If you have people fighting of economics, you can solve the issues. If you have people fighting over political differences, you can solve the issue. If you have people fighting over racial differences, you can solve the issue. When you have people fighting over religious differences it is just best to step out of the fray or you will end up bloodied from both sides.
I am in awe that I - an educated to the hilt executive who has listened to CCN, NPR, read the Times, the Post the local Charlotte Observer, Slate - has not yet read any discussions as good as the ones presented on this forum by so many people. Bravo - I would like to circulate all of these educational testimonials.
I am also reminded that we all should reflect on the Crusades - mass elimination of all non-Catholic - that happened in, the 11th century (I could be wrong…). This is not a new problem, and certainly not a problem that we should limit to the “middle eastern” world against our ? “white” world…
But my grief over the events of the last few days is now increased by current reports of vigilante stoning, beating, burning, harrassing of any person or business here in the US that appears “middle-eastern”. WE must show that in fact we are leaders of the free world - capable of directing our anger and retaliation against only those truly responsible and not indulge in the bigotry that leads Bin Laden or whomever to kill innocents in the name of an insane paranoid mania against anything “American”.
Actually, the CIA would deny that THEY exist, given the option…
But regardless, even if they funded the Afghan rebels, and had military advisors in the country, and the Afghan rebels funded bin Laden with US money, the end result was still the same.
But I’m not blind to the reasons we did it. In the 80’s I was not displeased to see us aiding and abetting the rebels who defied the Soviet Military Machine against occupation. Like most people who had some political awareness of the situation, I didn’t lose a lot of sleep over the fact that the Soviets, who had aggressively invaded a “defenseless” country, were all of a sudden saddled with their own “Vietnam”.
Fast forward 20 years, and of course hindsight is 20-20…
