The "NO REINSTATEMENT" thread.

[War_Admiral]

I could use some help from anyone interested in campaigning against the reinstatement of ANY of the horse killers.

Think we can’t do it? Maybe you’ve forgotten this little episode from 2004.

What I propose for starters is an online petition, which can be circulated not just among USEF members and affiliate organizations, but among other national and foreign equestrian organizations as well, and then sent to USEF, the USOC, and the FEI.

I certainly don’t mind initiating this. However, I could use a little help from all y’all with the wording. Would it be better to have the petition contain language against reinstatement of ANY/ALL of the convicted parties listed here , or is it better to tackle the subject on a case-by-case basis?

Thanks for any comments/advice. If you’re not comfortable posting on this thread, PM me.

[Sherry]

Try this…

http://horsesdaily.com/news/showjumping/2005/05wef/03-11-wk7_day3_caristo.html

[Snowbird]

I like blood red for the blood that was shed by innocent horses. I think that’s a great idea so everyone knows how much support there is. We can tie red ribbons at every horse show and put them on every trailer too.

[2hsmommy]

…it was acceptable at the time…times do change
Do we list every person that has sent a horse to slaughter on this non-reinstatement list???

if

And who thought this was acceptable? You? Obviously not acceptable to most people on this thread.

Sending a horse to slaughter is legal, unfortunetly. Defrauding insurance companies is not legal. Put a spin on whatever you want and twist things around, but those are facts.

[Yours_Truly]

I’m frustrated and confused. Has he been seen on the showgrounds (since banned) or not? --on or off days, motivation notwithstanding.

[Erin]

Hasn’t PV been running ads about his “charitable works” for several years now? I know there was one regarding his making donations to animal charities after 9/11, so it’s been at least four years.

To play devil’s advocate for a moment, a couple of points to consider…

Although I know many feel that PV was thumbing his nose at the suspension by continuing to train and be involved in the horse world… consider it from another point of view for a moment. Obviously, from the get-go, he has hoped to be reinstated. It was possible for him to continue to have somewhat of a career and still follow the rules by not being on show grounds. Do you really think it fair to expect him to go out and earn a living as a stockbroker or something for 10 years and THEN come back and ask to be reinstated and come back into the horse world?

A second point to consider… does “no reinstatement” apply to EVERYONE who was suspended as a result of the insurance fraud scandal? PV has been in the public eye somewhat since he has continued to be involved in showing, so he’s kind of borne the brunt of the wrath. But there are a whole bunch of other people who were suspended for 10 years – it’s just that I’m guessing no one really knows what they’ve been up to for that time.

I think adventurebeachponies makes an excellent point in that the suspensions are what they are. You might not agree with them, you might think that the then-AHSA should have banned the whole lot of them for life. But, since this is what the AHSA decided to do, as adventurebeachponies said, the game can’t be changed at this point.

I’m also guessing that this has probably happened many times before in the history of AHSA/USEF, and there are probably many people who are members who have done egregious things and been reinstated… it just happened to be before the time of the internet, so the “little people” weren’t as aware of it.

On a separate note, y’all might want to take a look at what the folks on the eventing forum did with their Save the Three-Day campaign. They had an online petition and a website, took out ads in the USEA magazine and COTH, and had a booth at Rolex. You can see the website at http://www.savethe3day.org and I think there are links there to some of the BB discussions.

Oh, and also, anyone who is interested can submit a Horseman’s Forum for the COTH. It’s meant for exactly this kind of thing – starting a dialogue about important issues in the horse world.

[Linus]

In the interests of a more “general” discussion, can I repeat a question I asked earlier?

In the Star-Ledger article, it was stated by a USEF type that involvement in the horse community while suspended is a prerequisite to reinstatement, not a violation of rules:

Lori Nelson, the USEF’s hearing committee liaison, said “there are substantial requirements for reinstatement.” Those who apply “must feel remorse and show total rehabilitation and a contribution to the horse community before the hearing.” She said the committee also would look at letters from people who want to weigh in on the matter.

I’m confused. Are suspended folks supposed to have nothing to do with horses during suspension, or to actively participate in the community? If you’re a trainer – how else would you make a contribution than by training (within the rules of suspension)?

[Jane]

MEANWHILE: KNOW ANY T.V. CRITICS? Don’t forget TV bloggers, as well.

It might be worth sending your local T.V. critic a quick e-mail tying the No Reinstatement campaign in with tomorrow’s debut of the “Road to Maclay” series on Animal Planet.

This is what I wrote. Feel free to borrow and edit.

Dear ______:

While Animal Planet is focusing its latest efforts on the equestrian community (see “Road to Maclay”, starting tomorrow night, and the upcoming Grand Prix jumping series), this might be an opportune time to focus some media attention on the professional jumping trainers who were prosecuted and convicted under RICO for insurance fraud which involved the brutal killing of show horses for profit.

Having been suspended for varying terms, these people are now being reinstated, one by one, to professional standing in the US Equestrian Federation. Some of us in the equestrian community find this inappropriate.

See wwww.noreinstatement.org and the Providence Journal for tomorrow, Wed. 2/1.

Best regards,

Oh for crying out loud, must you people piss in every pot?

There’s finally going to be a show (series) on a major network on the sport, which will be an introduction to the h/j world to a good percentage of its viewers. It’s not bad enough that we’re hoping the show will focus more on the sport itself, the love of horses, without making it appear to be too much of an elitist sport, but you want to go and bring more negativity to it?

[Erin]

Originally posted by JuniorJumper01:
Comparing our sport to other sports is also without grounds, as each governing body of each sport has different rules. If a basketball player violates some rule of the NBA and is consequentially prohibited from ever playing in a recognized basketball game ever again, that’s based on the rules of the NBA and its board of directors. Nothing in the rules of the USEF directly states that Paul can not be reinstated after suspension. That is the joy of loopholes, like it or not.

I understand the moral turmoil of it all, but it’s not morals or principals that are going to get you anywhere. And the legalities of it are realistically in his favor.

I think you’re misinterpreting a good portion of the discussion.

First of all, this isn’t really a discussion of legalities or loopholes, when speaking of the reinstatement application. The USEF is the one who handed down the suspension and they set up the rules for it – they decided the suspendees must APPLY, rather than simply being reinstated, and they set up certain criteria for that reinstatement. Obviously, by doing so, they had some sort of idea in their minds of what kind of behavior they wanted to see from the suspendees during their suspensions, and the idea that they might NOT reinstate them, if their behavior didn’t warrant it.

Secondly, obviously the only rules that apply in this situation are the USEF rules, and no one has suggested otherwise. It does seem worthwhile, however, to look at the precedents set by other governing bodies. All of these groups have committees that decide these things, based on their interpretation of their own rules. I doubt the skating federation has written into its rule book that if your husband whacks a competitor on the knee, you’ll be booted out of the federation for life. The NBA doesn’t have a rule that dictates that you get suspended for an entire season if you climb into the stands and deck a fan. Rather, the committee looks at the offense, looks at what the rules say in a general way about how such offenses should be handled, and then makes a decision.

[2hsmommy]

Is known to those involved in what? Area 51? Kennedys’ assasination? Give us a hint…

Jaysus, get over yourself.

[Boberry]

jn1193, just a note we covered the “how do you insure now?” topic earlier. Basically the horse is in another barn owner’s name, not directly linked to a perpetrator’s. I have come to the conclusion that these people can operate outside the USEF when I believe the intent of the rules and suspensions was to eliminate them from the horse show business. The fact that they operate around the business is an insult, but legal in the eyes of the law, but I hope we can make it not legal in the eyes of showing horses.

[SGray]

If you were a groom for a BNT, at a big show, and you come in one morning to find one of your charges dead in its stall, said stall is in perfect shape, as you left it the night before except for the fact that the horse is flat-out in the middle of it - what would you think?

[xegeba]

and your logic eludes me…

[Coreene]

The Animal Planet series was already filmed. It’s not like American Idol.

[anthem35]

Originally posted by Silk:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by anthem35:
As you and we all know, its to ‘each his own’.

And yes, I agree: everyone is entitled to their opinions, and everyone has the right to honor and state their opinion without being harrassed and treated badly!

I hope Florida is treating you well, and I hope Teddy is doing well - fat and happy! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Very much, for your nice words!!!

Ted and Mikey are doing extremely well…
The kid is working VERY hard!!!
AND Teddy seems to really love him…

On a side note-I have found what seems to be the closest thing to actually having a child of my own!
If I have ONE fingernail left by the end of the darned circuit it will be a miracle!

[jn1193]

As I said in my post yesterday, I’ve tried to stay out of this thread, as frankly, the subject brings back too many horrific memories. But after a sleepless night last night, it struck me that perhaps we need to change the arguement slightly, i.e.:

To those who support reinstatement or who currently ride with Paul, I ask the following questions:

How many horses must someone kill before they stop being someone who has “given so much to industry” and become someone who is an embarassment to our industry?

How many national awards must a trainer or owner win before killing any horse for personal gain is acceptable and they are a “great guy who will be welcomed back into the ring”?

To those who ride or do business with these trainers, how many horses may they kill before you stop finding it acceptable to give them money and support?

How many horses may someone kill before they should be barred from participating in any way, shape or form from the horse industry?

For most of us on these forums, the answer is zero. For a number of you, however, there is a quantifiable answer. For those of you who ride with Paul, the minimal answer is “one”, perhaps more. If you ride with Barney or buy or sell horses through him, the answer is “more than one.”

So, here’s my response from now on. Next time someone posts in support of any of those convicted of killing horses or who says they ride with Paul, I am going to ask them to give us an answer, a number which they believe is acceptable: “I think it’s okay to kill x number of horses as long as the trainer can help me win.”

It’s that simple. Really. No debate. Think about it for a minute.

We all have choices. There are trainers out there who are top notch who have not killed horses. You can make a choice to go to one of them.

[ponybreeder]

Hey Iota and MWE. I see you are posting here for the first time. Welcome to the boards.

[hiddenlake]

Originally posted by xegeba:
I never did get an answer to my many dumbass questions that I thought were pertinent to the topic.

Finally we’re getting somewhere.

Thanks for a great laugh.

[RNB]

No wimps in my circle of horse friends, Snowbird We get more determined and vocal everyday!

[radio_talk_Aefvue_Fa]

For some reason, I think Dana Trip wasn’t on the suspended list… Could be very wrong on that. Trying to find WA’s list from the archives…