The "NO REINSTATEMENT" thread.

[BaliBandido]

Originally posted by xegeba:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Now you may say there are always options, but we all know that sometimes that is not true. there are those people who can not afford to have one put down, disposed of or buried due to finances etc- what do you tell them? Should they let it die and just rot? If they can’t afford to feed it, put it down do they just let it starve?

Personally? If I found myself in that situation… I would do whatever it took(beg, borrow,maybe even steal?) to make sure my animal died a dignified, painless (physical and emotional) death. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that the fact you are willing to do so is great, however not everyone places the same emphasis on the same things. If I couldn’t beg or borrow and my option was to steal then I face the possibility of jail, where does that leave my daughter, my home, my job? Maybe it is an option for you, but for me and I am sure many others it is not. Then what? See I understand what you are saying and I truly appreciate it, however for many it is not a realistic scenario, I think in that situation slaughter is not equally comparable to the killing of horses for ego or profit. Yes, in the end you have an animal that is dead- however intent is a huge factor I think in determining the nature of the offence.

[Erin]

Are there any stewards or rules experts who could explain IN A GENERAL SENSE what the “training for the benefit of a suspended person” etc. rule is meant to prevent and what situations it applies to? How has USEF used it against suspended persons/their students/whoever in the past? (If they have, that is.)

[Yours_Truly]

I agree that the proof is difficult to acquire. That’s what I’m driving at. Conjecture is useless. For those who truly believe PV is in violation of the Rules, getting the proof should be their focus. I’m not suggesting a mob of unruly mercenaries armed with video cameras descend on Wellington and skulk around from behind the bushes. But I do think that those who feel passionately about it should keep tabs on PV and his comings and goings, documenting violations when they occur.

[Snowbird]

Rubytoo I can send your bracelets out tomorrow if you get your order in tonight.

[Fairview_Horse_Cente]

What professional horse person is on their computer at 1:10 PM ET?

People who live on their barn property, taking a lunch/coffee break.

[Snowbird]

I think the biggest issue is this is a new corporation. It did not take over the obligations of the old AHSA. That still exists as the USAE Trust as does the USET Foundation exist as a separate entity.

They have all over the book “in the best interest of the sport and the Federation”. What does that mean if they allow these culprits back silently one by one?

Yes racetb it does and it has an influence with all clients who have a horse that has a real accident. And, yes! we are paying the costs in our premiums for insurance.

C.Boylen Thank you I had forgotten that page in favor of GR67. This book for this new corporation is very clear. Hiring a proxy and paying them is a violation. His interpretation of the rules is putting a lot of people at risk if this Federation stands by it’s rule book. But, I agree that just because we’re right doesn’t mean we can win our point without a lot of people stamping their feet and mailing letters in addition to the Petition.

Every Board Member with an email address is listed on the USEF pages. Every Committee and Working Group is listed with emails or faxes.
Don;t send one letter group email them or group fax them.

[Snowbird]

That’s our Catch 22! USEF doesn’t have supeona power.We could use some help from a Legal as to how the Membership would require the information if there was a protest.

I apologize for any misspelling but the Doctor says I have some Macular Degeneration so it is hard to focus and I see the key next to the key I want to type where the other key is supposed to be.

[One_Star]

Originally posted by radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA:
For some reason, I think Dana Trip wasn’t on the suspended list… Could be very wrong on that. Trying to find WA’s list from the archives…

Chuck Waters’ wife Dana is the former Dr. Dana Tripp, a veterinarian from Valencia, Pa., who was charged with conspiracy, failure to file tax returns, and concealing a felony in the Barney Ward/Marion Hulick/Paul Valliere/George Lindemann horse killing scandal. Tripp was pregnant and the judge did not give her jail time but she lost her Vet license, and rumor was they were trying to petition for it back at one point.

[Snowbird]

Well said Kap; That is what everyone forgets one way or another we all are charged for crimes. That’s why we should be able to police ourselves.

Yes! it has been so very nice finding out there are other people who remember the good old days when this was a sport. Sort of like an old boys club you think? “Those were the days” when I was young and gullible.

[Uberraschung]

Originally posted by Boston Chicken:
I know I’m whispering into a howling wind, but personally, I find the latter part of this whole thread alarming. The extreme opinions and directives may only serve to drive away people who are trying to find their own stance on the issue.

If you have issue with this man being reinstated, fine - power to the people and all that. To suggest however that following this man to “document” infractions is nothing short of screwy and smacks or some left (or right) wing vigilantism that has gone far beyond the original intent of the petition.

Exactly. Just what the man needs…his own personal stalkers from an online BB Just downright screwy…

[Silk]

Originally posted by anthem35:
Each time, upon hearing the I train with Paul, the response was the same.

“Good Man, Great trainer. We will be happy to see him back at the ring”.
.

That still does not make it OK in the eyes of his non-supporters. Doesn’t matter which BNJ/BNT/BNR thinks he is really neat and cool – it doesnt change the facts.

It does, however increase my understanding and dislike even more for that whole end of the horse world.

[GoldCoastRider]

The gaul of people like her (Dana Waters) is the most unbelievable and the most frightening part of it. To parade around like nothing was done?

I think that is what has turned me off to the whole “big circuit” crap. These people with more money and even more attitude prancing around looking down on people, and having this attitude that they can decide what is right and what is wrong, who is forgiven and who is not. Their decisions must be accepted.

What boggles my mind is the snobbery and high standards when it comes to what circuit, what clothes, what type of horse, what trainer, what this and what that…but then haughtely to say well we think this person (rapist) is part of the club, or that person is wonderful (horse murderer) or that person has style (drug dealer). The rationalized and self serving double standard is forced upon you like a B rated horror movie.

It makes me sick.

[CBoylen]

But Acres Wild Farm in RI is. And is listed with the USEF as active and in good sted

But all of the horses owned by it are not in good standing, except for two, which are I believe too old to still be competing.

I would like to add that someone named on the “horse welfare” committee of USHJA should have a very difficult time backing someone who was found guilty of killing a horse with the intent of collecting an insurance premium.

Why? I have made no statements on behalf of the horse welfare committee on this issue.

[Snowbird]

You’re absolutely correct C.Boylan. Our concern has been that a convicted person found guilty and having confessed to a crime is a cut above an infraction of the rules.

Yes! we cannot prove that his proxy has been paid; it could have been a cash deal and untraceable. Yes! there are always ways that people can bend and twist the rules of well intentioned people to make their infractions seem and error of the composition and detail of the rules.

PV and the others are very clever and have very clever people working to help them. Those of us who are basically hones can never imagine the loopholes that exist. You are correct by these definitions a set of books could show no legal provable trail under USEF Rules but it doe not alter the conviction which was against the law and for which he was suspended. Our margin of proof depends solely on that conviction.

I would not want to see anyone make a life’s work out of trying to prove that these rules which can be evaded are not enforced. That’s the reason we have stayed with those convicted and sentenced in a court of law. That is covered on page GR67.

We are not concerned with others who may violate the rules in other ways but those suspended by virtue of a US Court Trial of a felony specificaly related to a fraud involving horses.

It is so easy to find reasons not to do something and much harder to find constructive ways. I am not in favor of vigilanteism or witch hunts.

I do believe that as described above in keeping with all the redundant rules that specify “in the best interest of the sport and the Federation” are specifically applicable.

[War_Admiral]

Hmmm, interesting - Big Dawg and I have actually found something we agree on.

Big Dawg, just as an FYI - I own an ex “A” circuit horse that I rescued at a feedlot auction, absolutely crippled. When we pulled blood on him, he was indeed described as “a walking crack factory”. So believe me, I know whereof you speak and I know you are right - there are plenty of horses out there who are, let’s put it politely here, considerably overmedicated.

If you were to check my posts in this forum over the last several years, you would find that my position has ALWAYS been anti-drug ABUSE, and that as late as last year I was begging USEF to give us penalties with some serious teeth for those who fail to adhere to the therapeutic substance rules.

I believe that the therapeutic substance rules exist for reasons that are valid. While I personally would in fact prefer it if we adhered to the FEI position, that’s my own personal preference, and I’m sure the majority who DO strictly adhere to the therapeutic substance rules would disagree. Realistically, I don’t think it’s a resolvable debate.

My question to you is, if you feel that strongly about people violating the therapeutic substances rules, then where were you last year when we did try to get USEF to enforce stronger penalties against those who violate said rules? Because to me, that’s what DOES need to happen.

I’m a big believer in the rule book and a strong supporter of what USEF tries to do. At no point have I ever claimed that any of the horse killers do not have the right to apply for reinstatement. Of course they do. It’s written right into the decision of the Hearing Committee.

However, the way that decision is worded, it also leaves the door open for USEF to make a decision at a later time as to whether any of these people will be reinstated or not. I think all we’re trying to do here is persuade USEF that a large number of equestrians think reinstatement of any of the horse killers is a bad idea.

We have as much right to express this opinion as Mr. Valliere et al. do to take out persuasive ads in the trade magazines advertising their position.

What I do find rather heinous on the part of the pro-reinstatement advocates is reports I’m getting privately about employers putting pressure on their employees NOT to sign the petition.

Like I said, people, take a long hard look at your trainers… And the horse-related companies you work for…

As I’ve stated before, I believe that anyone who kills horses for insurance money has automatically waived their right to call themselves an equine professional.

You have every right to disagree, and as long as the debate stays sensible, I hope you keep posting!

Hope that clarifies things a bit.

[Lucassb]

Originally posted by Snowbird:
Well now SNL you send me one and I will wear it to the USEF Convention and if you want to give me a few spares I will offer them to everyone there. And if they say no or if they say yes, you will all know where we stand.

Snowbird Acres Farm, 204 Schooleys Mountain Road, Long Valley, NJ 07853. I am putting it here because I am proud to be against re-instatement in these circumstances. And I don’t pretend to be anonymous.

Snowbird,

Let’s take SNL up on her offer and have usAHSA make up some more bracelets. I am willing to fund an initial supply. Maybe we should offer one on our membership apps? You know, “check this box if you would like to support the effort to prevent the reinstatement of the horse killers…”

[Snowbird]

Yes! WEF would be in jeopardy but the reall guilty party is the person who signed the entry form. The waiver from USEF which is under New York State Law says that the person who completes the entry form has given an oath that all the information as suppiled is true.

It is then signed by the parent and the trainer of record. If there is reasonable doubt that the trainer is an employee (whether paid in money or compensated in kind) that person is also a violator. All parties are culpable a assessories.

That’s my point all these innocent people who have been beguiled are actually guilty of lying under oath on each waiver for each show where those circumstances occur.

That’s my point I didn’t put those children in jeopardy but I am sorry they are at risk. If I were present I would most likely have not said a word either for the sake of the innocent riders who do not understand the rules.

However, to me that PV puts them in that position proves he is not remorseful and still believes he is so wonderful he is above the rules.

[au_panda]

War Admiral: I will gladly sign the petition. Thank you for initiating it. It is unimaginable to me that the USEF would even consider reinstating any of these people. I would also recommend that anyone and everyone consider sending email directly to Mr. USEF president and all committee members (emails are listed on the USEF website).

[Yours_Truly]

It is futile to discuss how we wish someone would feel. Remorse, regret, sorrow, guilt–these are feelings that come from within. Asking for an apology is similarly futile. The only genuine apology is one given of free will.

[Snowbird]

A moral issue is just that and there is never any excuse to kill a healthy horse. Interesting that doctors have determined that lethal injection is not a merciful way to execute. Yet that is how the majority prefer to dispose of horses.

If a horse is old and in pain and it cannot be fixed; or if there was a legitimate broken leg then it is not immoral. If someone considers it as a business decision to limit the loss and maximize the profit then it is immoral.

That’s all we say and believe. PV is not a specific choice he’s just next in line because we were not watching. Now we will watch.