The "NO REINSTATEMENT" thread.

Just chiming in, but I too don’t believe he will be reinstated. Two things, first there would be one helluva an uproar and second, no one would pay a whole lot of attention to the rules, if someone who was found guilty like PV, given a life suspension, then found to be okay to come back to the fold. It really would not be a smart move on the USEF’s part what so ever.

Oh Racetb, I think your bling with a shad belly would be dynamite. Now of course, you need to have the lining in hot pink with little sparkly things You sure would catch the judges eye!

ise - so long as he’s not training his clients at USEF sanctioned events, he is not violating the rules.

(Do I think he should be allowed to make money off horses. No. But, he’s not breaking the rules by doing so.)

Originally posted by Snowbird:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>

[QUOTE.[quote][/b]

Do you have anything constructive that you do to make the wold we live in a be a better place? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes I do.

I recognize humans are nor perfect by any means, and will and do make mistakes.

I take the time to listen to THEM, and offer them a chance to make amends.

There is a lot of good that comes out of the bad, and I believe we are all deserving of a second chance.

War Admiral those T shirts are great. Thank you for doing all of this!!

PV and others have not met the majority of people in the USEF, but they have hurt them. Why is the membership being attacked for “not being open to forgiveness”? Why can’t we hold people responsible for hurting the horse industry? The convicted had the membership’s trust, but they abused that trust. They lost it, not us.

Hiddenlake I totally agree with your premise. There is another thread having to do with Federal Fraud Cases which I think is equally important and this topic shouldn’t be limited to just PV but should include anyone who has been convicted of a felony.

I think on the big stage the issue includes those who have defrauded people of their horses. I think it should also be something for those who are repetitive drug abusers on their horses, as well as those convicted of defrauding insurance companies by having horses killed.

It has always bothered me that when someone has been found drugging their horse it should be reported to the DA in the state of the occurance because under the Ricco “gangsterism” laws anything that affect the outcome of a sporting event is subject to criminal action.

I think those who habitually are found guilty of selling horses they don’t own and not giving the owners the money and all that sort of thing is equally against the welfare of the sport albeit not as heinous as killing a horse for the money.

If we are going to take a stand on integrity then it should be across the board. But we need to take it a step at a time. We need to propose Rule Changes which have terms and conditions that are properly defined and measurable so that the rule cannot be used to discriminate arbitrarily.

Perhaps War Admiral while you have the ball in play the Petition for not reinstating PV should be the first shot over the bow.

He certainly knows that hiring a proxy is against the rules. Sure it doesn’t say exactly that he can’t send an employee instead of him but everyone knows what it means

I don’t think anyone can state with certainty that Paul is not abiding by the rules. There are very detailed rules as to what someone can and cannot do under these circumstances, and there is no reason to suspect that someone in such circumstances would not follow them when they are very specifically laid out. In any case, they are so specific; there’s certainly no way for anyone not privy to the exact details to be able to judge for sure one way or the other.
I will say that, as a competitor, I have no issue with the way Paul currently conducts his business.
I’ll add the rest of the passage from the rulebook, as all that seems to have been quoted is the very vague beginning.

GR70 © USEF November 2005
VIOLATIONS and PENALTIES
Any person who assumes the responsibility for the care, custody or control of an unsuspended horse completely or in part owned, leased, trained by or coached by a suspended person, must not:
a. Be paid a salary directly or indirectly by or on behalf of the suspended person; or
b. Receive a bonus or any other form of compensation in cash, property or other remuneration or consideration such as to make up for any such lost salary; or
c. Make any payments of any kind, or give any remuneration or other compensation or consideration, to the suspended person, his/her spouse or companion, any corporation,
partnership or other entity owned or controlled by said suspended person or to any other person for transfer to any of said individuals or entities for the right to ride, exhibit,
coach or train for the suspended person or any of the suspended person’s customers
during Federation Licensed Competitions;
d. Use the farm or individual name of the suspended person.
5. An individual who takes over the horses of a suspended trainer or coach must:
a. Bill customers directly on his/her own bill forms for any services rendered at or in connection with any Federation Licensed Competitions
b. Maintain a personal checking account totally separate from and independent of that of the suspended person for purposes of paying all expenses of and depositing all income from customers;
c. Pay all his/her employees working at Federation competitions, none of whom may be employees, directly or indirectly, of the suspended person;
d. Keep checks, books, employee records and make withholding of taxes and other regular deductions from his/her employees’ paychecks;
e. Pay all feed bills, motel, van bills, travel expenses, etc. from his/her separate and independent checking account and preserve, for six months after the date that said suspension is terminated, invoices for said bills;
f. If such individual makes use of any equipment of a suspended trainer, the use of said equipment must be enumerated in detail in a written lease, the form and substance of which must be satisfactory to counsel for the Federation and shall be at the fair rental value for said equipment and said price must be included in said agreement;
g. File such federal and state tax returns as will reflect as his or her income the income from said training or coaching responsibilities at Federation Licensed Competitions;
h. Not borrow funds from a suspended trainer or coach, his/her spouse or companion, their families, corporations, partnerships or any other entities owned or controlled by said suspended trainer or to any other person for the purpose of going into business for
himself or herself at Federation Licensed Competitions during the period of said suspension, nor will he/she allow any of the above-named parties or entities to sign or guarantee any notes or any type of loans to enable him or her to go into business as
described above.
6. Suspended trainers and coaches, and individuals taking over the horses or customers of a suspended trainer or coach may be requested to make their books, canceled checks, invoices, tax returns and other evidence available to Federation representatives to verify and affirm the details of any relationship between them and suspended trainer or coach.

Mike, said banned coach was also seen “hanging around” with the team members and I believe that team was also busted for having blood analysis equipment and syringes in their quarters (as well as reportedly dumping stuff out the window when raided). So there were a few more extenuating circumstances…

But yes, I thought how timely, as well…

I’d feel safer sleeping with dogs with or without fleas. Than with self serving, self centered egotists who wouldn’t care even if it was people getting killed. Afterall Joe Plemmons is still welcomed and he admits he shot Helen Brach.

Thank You!!!
Got mine today.

Originally posted by SaturdayNightLive:
Ok, I’m gonna mention one more time that I have bracelets that read No Reinstatement. If you want one, please PM me and I’ll send one on to you.

How about a silent auction, maybe Ebay style since HarryJ loves it so much.

As another thought, an ad offering the bracelets (obviously saying something a bit provocative, like “ARE YOU OPPOSED TO REINSTATING THE HORSE KILLERS?”) would be an easy way to get the word out about the effort, as well as to advertise the bracelets.

I wonder if Equestrian magazine would run it? I bet COTH has the b@lls to do so. They have taken strong stands for what is right in the past; for example, during the NGB battle.

May I suggest you put a permanent post at the top of the Hunter/jumper forum which just has the link to the Bracelet website?

I should clarify that I know Dr. Hugi was practicing as of three or four years ago; I don’t know if his license was pulled for a time before that.

Fairview that is very true, and parents would let their children have pajama parties at Neverland.

I think you need to go to GR704, which effectively expands what is meant by 702.1.i.

It appears to be aimed at the person acting as a surrogate for the suspended person- as trainer, coach, (professional) rider, etc., ratehr than being aimed at the “clients”.

For instance, the closest part I can see to “for the credit of” is

  1. Any person who assumes the responsibility for the care, custody or control of an
    unsuspended horse completely or in part owned, leased, trained by or coached by a
    suspended person, must not:
    a. Be paid a salary directly or indirectly by or on behalf of the suspended person; or
    b. Receive a bonus or any other form of compensation in cash, property or other
    remuneration or consideration such as to make up for any such lost salary; or
    c. Make any payments of any kind, or give any remuneration or other compensation or
    consideration, to the suspended person, his/her spouse or companion, any corporation,
    partnership or other entity owned or controlled by said suspended person or to any
    other person for transfer to any of said individuals or entities for the right to ride, exhibit,
    coach or train for the suspended person or any of the suspended person’s customers
    during Federation Licensed Competitions; or BOD 1/16/05 Effective 12/1/05
    d. Use the farm or individual name of the suspended person.
    Remember that, in USEF-speak, “assumes responsibility for the care, custody or control of a horse” means “signs as trainer on the entry blank.”

the fault of your statement is in the interpretation of the rules. they are meant as the trainer may not be at the show ring, on the show groungs, or on the phone coaching the rider through a course while showing in a recognized class, he also cannot be riding, etc. yet he IS allowed to send a trainer employed by him to train his riders which he trains at home (mass or FL) under his own roof(s)

Why do your posts sound so much like Hildegaard Frostbite who happens to be managed by Mason Phelps? I remember early on when you tried to impress us with your insider knowledge.

In any case it is not “my interpretatin of the rules” it is what the rules read exactly. I see clearly where it is a violation of the Federation Rules to add any gain in prestige or money to the benefit of anyone suspended. You on the other hand seem to read them the old way where the rules were interpreted to mean if they didn’t say you couldn’t then you could! Yopu really need to get contemporary “my dear”. BUT that was a whole other corporation “dearie”. This one is brand new and they say that the rules will be enforced equally for everyone highly placed or lowly. We intend to make that be so!

proper writing skills? please i’d love to be “educated” on what was improper about that post. IMO is short hand for in my opinion. i write in perfectly fine interest. i don’t count the riders i’ve seen, i have seen a bunch, in person. i apologize for not knowing his life story “my love.” your previous post was the most IRRELEVANT, ignorant thing i have read in my entire life.

No you don’t want to be educated you make your living from being snide and sarcastic. I am so pleased because if you think a post is irrelevant and ignorant it must be really intelligent and right on target, don’t you think “my love”. Congratulations to who ever it was you were criticizing; maybe they will get your job from Mason.

I’m glad they got there, I don’t have a lot of confidence in the postal system. I hoped the new envelopes would keep them secure.

I have gotten 3 orders since that batch and will get them ready for Sunday. So anyone who wants to order do me a favor and send it in before Sunday afternoon. Buy your NO-REINSTATEMENT BRACELETS NOW!

I’ve been giving them to my trade people like the vet to circulate at other barns as well.

Nahhh, let’s not hang the Big Dawg, Snowbird. As others have observed, s/he is doing a far better job keeping this thread on page 1 than any of us could possibly hope for (I foresee a dazzling future for you with Phelps Media, BD).

Besides, I’m always one for spirited debate, this country being a democracy and all.

Yep! I got word they are clucking all over Wellington because the “savage indians” are restless and challenging authority with this petition.

Tsk! Tsk! That’s how this country got free from the King of England. He just didn’t understand freedom.