I apologize WA, and thank you for the reminder to keep things on topic. Wouldn’t the USEF provide you with such information?
anthem, I know you obviously are close to PV and think highly of him, but I think you’re losing sight of something here.
This group of people committed felonies. They KILLED perfectly nice, useful horses because the animals were worth more to them dead than alive. Almost all of them pleaded guilty.
By all rights, these people should absolutely EXPECT the horse industry to scorn and shun them. I think everyone who has posted on this thread has, more or less, agreed that what they all did was pretty goshdarned wrong.
One is not necessarily entitled to forgiveness; one must earn it. And one is not automatically entitled to respect and compliments from their peers; one must earn that as well.
I don’t think it’s particularly useful to suggest that because certain people might not have “all of the facts,” they’re in the wrong. Face it, NONE of us have all the facts. Would you want people who knew a suspended person way back in the day coming on here and posting about alleged things he or she did that were NOT covered in the indictments? Because I heard straight from the FBI agents who investigated these cases that there were plenty more who were guilty – there just wasn’t enough evidence to convict, or the statute of limitations had expired. There were a LOT of dirty people involved in this whole saga.
But, when we participate here, we agree to an established set of “facts” as far as these discussions are concerned. And the facts are what has been documented in print or in court cases.
You seem to think PV is being treated unfairly here because of this mysterious “other side of the story.” What’s kind of ironic is that if any of the posters who are NOT fans of PV claimed the same thing – that there are “facts” that haven’t been told that would paint PV in an unflattering light, rather than the flattering one you seem to alude to – I’d delete it as soon as I saw it.
Well Erin we’re going to need supervision to stay on the straight and narrow. Like the horses we tend to want to wander around more than follow the trail.
So, you’ll have to prepared to engage the bit and spur.
Thank you Lucassb I am so sorry I forgot which state you covered, I don’t know why I was thinking New York. Forgive a well intentioned but old lady.
Will you write up the email for the Leadership group so we can keep them all up to date? You see harry this is how our Leadership Council works there are no officers we all pitch in where we can. And no back room deals. It’s all out in front.
Originally posted by filly3:
xegeba…I absolutely admire you for your very vocal opposition to slaughter and the callous way that we humans deal with “unwanted” animals. It’s appalling. There are many, many people who feel the same way that you do. When Congress overwhelmingly passed the slaughter bill recently, more Americans contacted their congressmen and representatives opposing slaughter than those oppossing the war in Iraq! There are a lot of people out there who share your beliefs and concerns. I hope that you contact your representatives, animal protection organizations, newspapers and anyone else who will listen to voice your care and concern. There’s a lot to be done and the animals NEED people like you to speak up for them We are their only voices. Good luck and many thanks!
To be correct, the “slaughter bill” did not stop Horse slaughter houses in the States–they just did not fund the USDA inspectors…BIG Victory for you animal rights terrorists…
There are no real winners in debates
Serious?
I wasn’t playing moderator. I was simply participating in an ongoing discussion. I’m sorry if that was not how you interpreted it.
I don’t know. Why don’t you ask Mr Valliere?
Originally posted by War Admiral:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-title”>quote:</div><div class=“ip-ubbcode-quote-content”>Originally posted by Sherry3313 Groom of Winners Aefvue Farms:
WA…I didn’t know that anyone had been reinstated already. Would you mind telling us who that is?
Nancy Banfield. That discussion was on another thread, if I remember right. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks…I didn’t realize that she had been reinstated. I didn’t see the other thread.
Just bumping up, we need to keep this going
Originally posted by Snowbird:
Dear little puppy, there is a difference between someone who was tried and convicted and confessed to their guilt of a felony that directly involved their participation in an illegal way in this sport and industry. Druggersd have not been prosecuted and most have not confessed their guilt.
If the USEF chose a District attorney could prosecute those who tested positive for drugging horses under the “racketeering laws”; I think those are called the Ricco laws. Anyone guilty of tampering with the results of a sport competition. I don’t know if that’s a felony or a misdemeaner. In my personal opinion the County should be notified whenever someone is caught and they should be the ones to prosecute both under Ricco and for Animal abuse. That would end the drugging problem very quickly. If the USEF does not purssue that recourse I am embarrased by them.
I am personally offended when righteous people say it’s nothing to collect insurance money fraudulently. It’s costs us each one when they do and they caused their own loss. I am offended when righteous people think that selling someone’s horse and not giving them the full amount that was paid short of a legal 10% commission is criminal enough for the USEF to recognize a court order. I am personally offended if our Federation chooses not to respect the Law enough to abide by the decisions of a court order.
Not to enforce the rules in the rule book that are available for this purpose is collusion and consent to criminal activities.
Where did you get your law school degree? Sears mail order?
RICO is racketeering, and it doesn’t even apply here.
Xegeba-Why in the world are you defending horse killers?
What part of legal vs illegal don’t you get? What part of killing horses purely for ego is so hard for you to understand? PV didn’t kill because he needed the money.
I sure hope that any horses you own never fail to live up to your expectations. Apparently you think what they did is OK.
Originally posted by big dawg:
And I am against animal abuse…I am a breeder and own horses that I am very partial to on lots of levels…I care about my animals, and wish others would feel the same way–but they don’t and that probably includes half the USEF membership–the city dwellers who just come out in their expensive SUV, get on the horse that the groom has all prepared and that the trainer beat the prior two days because it wouldn’t go for the lady because she is such a bad rider–then she takes her lesson, hops off, hands it back to the groom, maybe feeds it a couple of carrots, then off to shopping with her friend.
You are a breeder? Do you keep all of them? Do you sell them? Do they possibly go to the very people you are berating- the SUV driving, city dwelling, groomed horse, bad riding, trainer beating people? Do you ensure that you are not contributing to the problem by providing more of these animals and profiting from the sale of them to these lesson taking, carrot feeding shoppers? Or do you place each animal in a situation that provides properly (according to you) for them until the day they die?
Don’t get me started on this H/J industry. I am a jumper rider for over 25 years. I know how it is. And I don’t mean to condemn all the owners and riders, as there are many just like me who are always trying to do the right thing. But we have far more problems in this industry than these 2 doaen or so people, who no doubt will never do anything like this again, and who could serve as a voice in this industry as they have done something they are ashamed of and perhaps if around to tell others just may keep someone else from doing something similar.
Oh if only they were ashamed, if only they had the moral convictions to admit with sincerety the complete betrayal of the animals and people they were charged with looking after. Absolutely, if any of them truly had some genuine remorse, not for getting caught - but for the actual act itself and had repented in some way then maybe they could serve some greater good. However, with PV he has done exactly what he needed to do to comply with the letter of the ruling, but not its intent, he has made a show of his self serving generosity. He has shown people what he thinks they need and want to see, this is what a con man does, this is why he got into the trouble that he did. Make no mistake he did not freefall into this horse killing, he was waltzing down a trecherous slope that led him there. There were many, many misdeeds along the way, lies told, tracks to be covered, unholy alliances made, deals with the devil all so he could get what HE wanted at the expense of anyone and anything. He had no line that he didn’t cross. How can you state that they will no doubt never do it again? Are you willing to risk it? Is it that the circumstances will never be repeated? What does someone have to do for them to be considered not worthy of trust? How many times does someone get to lie, steal, cheat, defraud, maim and kill something in the name of greed and ego? I am not saying he should be drawn and quartered- he makes a good living now- fine. Let him do so, let those that see no problem with him continue to support him. But please as my association and governing body, if you say that your mission is the welfare of the horses etc then mean it. His inclusion back into USEF means what to him really? That he can put down the binoculars and 2 way radio? Big deal- However there are many people who have followed the rules in spirit and to the letter that managed to refrain from doing these kinds of things- somewhere they should be commended for that and they should expect that their association who set those rules will uphold them not make a mockery of them. I should think that those ‘2 dozen or so’ people who were guilty, should not swing the balance of the much larger numbers of their peers who have not committed these acts.
Yelp all you want- I suspect you have the intelligence to see the flaws in your arguments, however your one size fits all mentality with regard to the degree of crimes all being the same, and equating euthanizing a horse for either kindness or convenience to what was done to these horses seems to impede clear vision. I spent many of my years on a ranch, far from town and had to upon occasion put one down without the assistance of a vet, however I never saw any comparison to beating one with a crowbar, stuffing ping pong balls up its nose or electrocuting one. Maybe that is just a distinction I made.
Snowbird, if he isn’t on the showgrounds, he isn’t on the showgrounds; I don’t know whether or not he is. I’m simply suggesting that no one take gossip as gospel.
Originally posted by harryjohnson:
My last night posts suggest I am against the “movement” so to speak, but indeed I am not, I just feel that it is not likely to get off the ground where it counts. It will need to be funded in some way, and perhaps advertising purchased for full page ads in these publications stating the mission. The support you need has to go beyond the horse world, so be large enough to be effective. I do not believe the professionals of our sport will touch the issue.
Harry, your last statement is just so sad. “But by the grace of God” should not be the norm with our professionals.
War Admiral - once the letter/petition is ready, I will sign it and will be happy to bring it to the shows I attend. (Unfortunately, I won’t be headed to the sunny south.)
I would also be happy to contribute to trade ads and/or the bracelets for this purpose.
You know, if PV really wanted to prove that he has learned from this, and changed his ways, he would do what others have done - travel around the country giving speaches, helping to make laws stiffer, starting petitions to help STOP anyone else from doing what he did. Trying to make a difference, so others would learn from his past, and improve the welfare of show horses.
Training Level
Posted Feb. 20, 2006 01:44 PM
The perfect “cure” for ego and greed is simple…a lifetime ban.
Posts: 44 | Registered: Feb. 04, 2006
Agree 110%
Anthem, you cannot try to make any sense with this crowd. Every time you post anything it just gives them a new bone to gnaw on.
Clearly, the horse killers have received much better than they “dished out”. Look at PV, Dana Waters and others: they’re thriving in the horse world, and to them horses are and always will be a means to an end…money.
As a paid membership organization, the USEF should hear and take into account ALL members’ opinions regarding issues–we DO have a say and we SHOULD have a say in matters that directly pertain to us.
The future of our sport is in jeopardy if the USEF or others show in any way that such inhumane behavior can be so easily forgotten.
I’m not familiar with this one. Essentially you’re saying the horse was killed but there is no proof who killed it or why?
If that’s true then killing a horse which is farm livestock or designated as property and not involved in other nefarious plots. I don’t think we want to include because it could be a very slippery slope.
We have right now a definable term of “Convicted” that is in a court of law.
