There were others but not with documented proof.
I find it of interest that most of PV’s supporters on this thread are competely incognito. Now that is certainly their right, and a basic on BBs. Still, most of the No REIN group is well known by everyone. Yes there are some big supporters who have ID’d themselves, but so many more who are showing up lately and suggesting that they know legions of people who are for reinstatement. If anyone wants to throw some names out of people in favor, I will give you 10 for each one of people who are against it.
Originally posted by Snowbird:
This is a very valid point which I had not even considered. In reality all horse people are paying back to the insurance companies the money that these people received from claims.
So technically we are all their victims as well.
That, and as I stated earlier, it will be REALLY interesting to see if USEF is still able to provide blanket secondary insurance to all members if this group of people is reinstated. I like having that secondary policy to sit behind my primary insurance!
Anthem, just to bring you up to speed, this is the post to which Pocket Pony was referring.
Originally posted by scout33:I had thought this was a forum to discuss things whether we shared the same opinions or not without being patronized or attacked verbally at all turns. Maybe that was my mistake, amazing how people respond when there is the element of anonymity.
I suppose I could have saved us all this little brou ha ha if I had just responded, ‘Hello, Pot? It’s me, kettle!’
But, I was wearing my civility cape and just let it go.
Originally posted by big dawg:
Yes, but they were not suspended because they are criminals, they were suspended for animal abuse–in case you don’t know…there are no rules against criminals being members of the USEF.
And most every one of them have the right to petition for reinstatement, and to have their case heard in a fair and impartial manner…
after all, we let the suspended druggers of horses back in without even a petition for reinstatement…and that doesn’t bother all you “do gooder, self-righteous” types…I don’t get why you all are on such a bender about this when obviously other things don’t even phase you.
Ahhhhhhhh Big Dawg, me old pal, lovely to see you back! 
Beer? 
It’s my understanding that Big Dawg is completely correct and that criminal behavior itself is NOT sufficient grounds for a USEF suspension. (See: Joe Plemmons situation.)
The suspended parties were, as Big Dawg rightly states, suspended for horse abuse (read: killing them for profit), not for their respective convictions/participation in the federal fraud case.
And yes, every single one of them ABSOLUTELY has the right to apply for reinstatement; the terms of the USEF order confirm that. Nobody here is disputing it. But, as N&B&T observes, both “sides” are equally entitled to put forward as much persuasive material as they can muster.
Maybe where Big Dawg and I actually disagree is that I perceive the “drugging horses” issue to be a separate one from the “killing horses” issue.
I’m by all means in complete agreement w/ Big Dawg that the “drugging horses” issue needs to be addressed; I always have been. I’d love to see those fines and suspensions jacked up SO SKY HIGH that it’s no longer in any trainer’s best fiscal interest to use illegal substances on horses.
That said, I do think that it is a separate issue, and I think the more immediate need at this particular time is to focus on No Reinstatement for those who killed horses.
But I’ll be more than happy to come and play in an anti-drugging sandbox later, if anyone wants to get it started. Over to you, BD. And as usual, thanks for the bump!
Quick update on press: we’ve had some nibbles, we’ve done some interviews, so has the other side, so we’ll see y’all in the papers, guys.
I hardly think anyone ever feels bested.
I like being bested. Nothing compares to that “you’ve been bested” feeling. Besting. Sunrises. Sunsets. sublime.
I don’t have time to read 18 pages, and find out if there is such a thing as an online petition??? Put the link in the first post, and change the heading to say that there is one there, and I bet you will get a lot more…
BW gets credit…
"For second place finisher Cayce Harrison, it was a big step up. “I just got this horse in late July in Europe and I rode him at a couple of shows in Holland and it didn’t really go very well,” Harrison said. “I had a rough couple of shows and I was doubting our partnership a little bit. But I credit all the help that Barney and McLain Ward have been giving me. They really believed in me and believed in the horse and our relationship,” she said. “We’ve really come a long way since the summer. I’m ecstatic. This is almost surreal for me,” Harrison smiled. “But I can see why people get addicted to this and want to go in the ring every Sunday and I’m thrilled. This is my first year doing the big classes and only my third Sunday in the ring at Wellington,” admitted Harrison. “I never really thought I could get to this level, but I’ve got so many people behind me and supporting me that I feel I can go on. I’m very excited about it and can’t wait to keep going.”
Exactly, N&B&T.
Now Harry it’s not that bad! There are less than 20,000 total members of all the Forums for all disciplines. There are only about 25,000 in the Hunter and Jumper disciplines combined. Generally, I think the statistical average is 10 times the numbers of replies for all those that agree and ony 1% for all that buy which would mean here to put your name out front.
So we’re on the glory road already because we can subtract te 4/5000 riders that are at Wellington.
I sent this petition to everyone I have on my list…
People like this should not be allowed to have horses at all…
The SPCA prevents people from having dogs and cats when they abuse them, by law. I think the same should be done for horse abusers, and in a case like this, Valliere should get a lifetime ban… from any horse related activity.
JMO
I said at the beginning of the discussion on these boards that I was biased. That is why I felt that the ultimate legal decision should be left to the legal entities, and was frankly none of my business personally.
I will take offense to the perception that my memory is “skewed”, however.
I find it interesting that you take offense as a suggestion that your perseptions might be skewed because of your age and your proximity to PV.
Yet, you call us gossip mongers who do not know the facts. The only facts we need to know is that he was convicted and he confessed and the court record confirmed our convictions. An apology is not words it is actions. Technically manipulating the situation to what seems to conform to the rules is against the intention nd the moral respect for the Law denies those superficial verbal apologies. His actions make it appear his only regret is he got caught.
statement made here that Paul has not apologized to anyone or shown remorse to anyone is incorrect.
I have seen him do so, and so I chose to correct that untrue statement
And we understand as you said that you make that statement from your position of bias. Saying the words does not make it so. Actions are what make it so.
bigdawg–From abortion to reinstatement to Nazi Germany…PLEASE JUST STOP. I realize that this is a sensitive issue, as are all of the others that you have brought up. Please do not try and force your beliefs upon others, or call them “crazies” just because they do not agree with what you have to say.
So please, stop?
I get your point. But “we” still didn’t “do” that. My point was that. I feel very strongly that even though your BNTs whatever that “do” this got away with it, it should not be something “just done”.
Just talking this out, so under gR702H. “Exhibiting any horse while in the care, training or custody of a suspended trainer.” You can have a horse in your care on a farm you do not own but if a person publicly thanks the you (suspended trainer) for training, isn’t that a violation? Doesn’t reflect on your success as a trainer to have someone speak highly of your skills and enhance your reputation? Is that not an admission to having a ST as your trainer when you thank them?
My personal fave is Wesley
from an earlier post: "In a separate incident, longtime equestrian Robert Cheska, 39, of Waukesha, Wis., and James Heinsohn, 66, of Glenview were indicted for arson in connection with the May 1984 fire that gutted Heinsohn’s Lake Villa house, which was insured for $320,000 [Lake County State’s Atty. Michael] Waller said.
Cheska grew up on land owned by Silas Jayne along Nesler Road in Kane County.
Cheska’s father, Dick, and Silas Jayne were longtime friends in the show horse business, sources said."
More about Robert Cheska…
"Appeal from the United States District Court
for the Northern District of Illinois, Eastern
Division.
No. 96 CR 129–James F. Holderman, Judge.
ARGUED JANUARY 12, 1999–DECIDED JANUARY
31, 2000
Before BAUER, CUDAHY and ROVNER, Circuit
Judges.
ROVNER, Circuit Judge. Robert Cheska was
charged with mail fraud in conjunction
with a scheme to kill horses for
insurance money. He was convicted by a
jury, but the district court granted a
new trial because of a remark made by the
prosecutor during closing arguments.
Because of the broad discretion accorded
district court judges in deciding whether
to grant a new trial, we affirm.
I.
Cheska and his co-defendant, Georg
Nuber, were charged with using the United
States mails to defraud an insurance
company in connection with the death of a
show horse owned by Nuber. Over the
years, Nuber purchased a number of horses
from Cheska, a professional horse
trainer. Nuber boarded his horses at
stables operated by Cheska, and Cheska
trained Nuber’s daughters and their
horses in equestrian activities. Nuber
purchased a horse for one of his
daughters in the spring of 1986, using
Cheska as the agent for the transaction.
Nuber paid $6500 for the horse, which was
originally named Wanja, then renamed
Jolly Roger, and finally renamed
Valentino. Apparently, the horse did not
work well with Nuber’s daughter, and she
wanted another horse named Silver Rabbit,
which was owned by Cheska’s father. Nuber
decided to sell Valentino in order to buy
Silver Rabbit.
What happened next is in dispute, and
the jury ultimately acquitted Nuber on
mail fraud charges, so we must assume
they were not convinced by the
government’s version of events as they
related to Nuber. In any event, the
evidence showed that Nuber had insured
Valentino’s life for its full value, up
to $50,000. In January 1987, Nuber and
Cheska attended a horse show in
Wisconsin, where Cheska met with Timothy
Ray a/k/a Tommy Burns, a long-time
friend. Cheska told Burns that Nuber
wanted to have Valentino killed and was
willing to pay $5000. Burns, who had
killed several other horses for insurance
money, readily agreed. The two planned
for Valentino to be moved to Florida,
where Burns was living, so that the
killing could be accomplished. After the
horse arrived in Florida, Burns
electrocuted it in order to make the
death appear to be from natural causes.
Burns’ girlfriend, Lisa Kinney, acted as
his lookout.
Nuber submitted a claim to his insurer,
including a sworn proof of loss valuing
Valentino at $50,000, the policy limit.
Nuber claimed he had paid for Valentino
with cash and trade-ins worth $50,000,
and attempted to establish the value with
affidavits and bills of sale. The
insurer, apparently skeptical of the
value claimed and the circumstances
surrounding the death, hired a
veterinarian to perform an autopsy. The
veterinarian could not determine the
cause of death, but found the evidence
was consistent with death by
electrocution or being struck by
lightning. The insurer ultimately refused
to pay on the claim, and Nuber sued the
insurer in state court. In the course of
this lawsuit, Nuber and Cheska told a
number of conflicting tales about the
value of Valentino, how Valentino was
purchased, and what was paid in cash and
trade for the horse. Not surprisingly,
Nuber lost his case before a jury, and
the federal government took an interest
in the allegedly false documents Nuber
and Cheska created and transmitted
through the mails in their attempts to
establish the value of Valentino. The
government charged Nuber and Cheska with
mail fraud. A jury convicted Cheska but
acquitted Nuber.
At trial, Tommy Burns testified for the
government, as he had in a number of
trials relating to the killing of horses
for insurance money. It was a topic with
which Burns showed a disturbing
familiarity. By the time of Cheska and
Nuber’s trial, Burns had personally
killed fourteen other horses at the
request of their owners, all for the sake
of insurance fraud. Burns struck a very
favorable plea agreement, which required
him to cooperate with the government in
its investigation and prosecution of the
crimes in which he took a part. In
exchange for his cooperation, Burns
received a six month federal prison
sentence, which he had already served in
full at the time of Cheska and Nuber’s
trial." http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=7th/982665.html
I do not believe it was only these horses killed, and only these people involved. It’s an issue in the horse industry that needs to be taken seriously and result in permanent bans.
Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
Paul, oops I mean SCHUYLER -
Talk about head-bobbing lame. 
Paul, oops I mean SCHUYLER - it was not a mistake. It was an intentional act done as a result of core personal values involving horses and money. A person that does not care about horses more than to ever consider something like this, is not someone that should EVER have a place in their lives. That person will NEVER learn from “their mistakes”, because it is not a “learned” behavior, it is who they (you) are. Those values have no place in an organization dedicated to protecting the well being of the very animals that make it possible. This needs to be a CLEAR message to those in power in the organization. Nothing short of lifetime ban is acceptable.
If a doctor cheats patients causing death for personal financial gain, they would never be allowed to practice medicine again. Crooked cops are not allowed to be policemen - EVER again. They have assaulted the very substance of their profession. The same is true of the horse killers.
One other thing to think about… (I know, I am SO annoying with the devil’s advocate stuff! 
)
There’s always been a lot of anger on these boards toward the people who ARE in good standing who continue to do business with PV.
I have a feeling that had PV actually been shunned from the show world by the people in it for the last 10 years, there might be a different feeling toward his reinstatement.
PV wouldn’t have been able to continue making a good living in the show world if there weren’t a market for his services. And although I’m sure there are plenty who feel that’s just plain sucky, and reflects rather poorly on our little horsey universe, it is what it is.
I’m just pointing out that a lot of the anger involved in this issue might not actually be ALL due to PV.
At any rate, kudos to all for making this an actual rational and interesting discussion, rather than the usual “you suck” “no, YOU suck” variety of PV thread. 
