The “poaching clients” debate… again

[anon68314200]

Discussing this on riding instructor FB group, it would be very interesting if we could have an industry wide survey of clients/customers to ask how they feel about it.

If the service providers (farm owners, instructors) are in open conflict about this, it only makes the industry look worse. Clients are third, after property owners and instructors are done fighting about who is entitled to the clients loyalty and $.

The horse industry has its own unique challenges that make “business” very difficult to realize. And strong relationships with customers is one of the most important elements.

But without strong relationships between farm owners and instructors (whether w-2 or 1099 in the USA) the endeavor is poisoned from the outset.

[Texarkana]

I completely appreciate the challenges of horse professionals.

But I think the distinction needs to be made between “poaching” and clients leaving because their needs aren’t being met.

I have a friend who has a struggling horse business. She is often histrionic about all the “poaching” the local instructors in the area do. She “bans” customers from her program because they took lessons with a different instructor without telling her. Yet if they were satisfied with the program, they wouldn’t be trying out new instructors. She doesn’t listen to their concerns or needs. She is very limited in what she can offer them. Then she tries to control every aspect of their equestrian experience.

Sure, poaching happens. But if clients are happy, they will come back. Instructors need to be secure in that fact.

[Scribbler]

@anon68314200

Discussing this on riding instructor FB group, it would be very interesting if we could have an industry wide survey of clients/customers to ask how they feel about it.

If the service providers (farm owners, instructors) are in open conflict about this, it only makes the industry look worse. Clients are third, after property owners and instructors are done fighting about who is entitled to the clients loyalty and $.

The horse industry has its own unique challenges that make “business” very difficult to realize. And strong relationships with customers is one of the most important elements.

But without strong relationships between farm owners and instructors (whether w-2 or 1099 in the USA) the endeavor is poisoned from the outset.

Your post is a bit enigmatic so I don’t know exactly what you’re describing.

I will say speaking from the perspective of the client and watching my riding buddies, that some students are loyal to a fault and only move on when things are untenable. Others hop between barns and coaches looking for greener pastures. And others realize they have made a big mistake and move. In virtually every single case the coach is upset and feels the client has been poached. But the client feels they have made an active and rational choice to improve their situation.

How many COTH posts do we see where the client posts some unpleasant situation and then says they are scared to leave because the coach or BO will trash them behind their backs?

Poaching is the complaint of coaches who can’t keep clients for very real reasons.

[atr]

Its the same in every business. Clients move on because their needs aren’t being met. They either go out and find the alternative on their own or they are courted by the competition and succumb to it for one reason or another, but usually cost or quality of service.

As a supplier, it makes you feel a bit sore, but should also lead to some heartsearching and examination of business practices if it happens too frequently.

If one acts graciously and leaves the door open for future communication, they often come back.

[Scribbler]

Also every coach should keep in mind that unless you are only doing absolute beginners or returning adult riders, every client has a previous coach who thinks you poached their client

[Texarkana]

Also, it’s completely normal for you to reach your limit in what you can offer a client. People grow and change, relationships grow and change. Even the greatest horsemen and women in the world lose their students eventually. Honestly, if your students are staying with you forever, you aren’t doing it right.

ETA: With regard to owners— that is a little more tenuous, but those relationships change, too. One of the reasons I became disenchanted with my career as a young professional years ago was because I realized “living the dream” for most riders meant having to rely on a super wealthy benefactor funding you. I found that scary and stressful; I didn’t want to do horses on someone else’s terms.

[anon68314200]

I agree. But there is a very vocal community of professionals who promote a narrative of “unprofessional” behavior. Largely…… farm owners (or established instructors) who have contract /employee instructors come and go, and clients go with them. Understandably, they are very unhappy that they struggle to keep a reliable stream of $ to support their very significant investment in property, tractors, lesson horses, etc. BUT they often choose to cope with the very real hazards and stresses of business ownership by blaming folks lower down on the food chain.

[anon68314200]

I agree. But I feel that it creates a toxic situation, industry wide, when business owners attempt to make it a moral failing of their (former) partner/employee. If anyone currently has an instructor in their employ, whether legally or illegally, you should ask yourself if you have a strong enough relationship to discuss these issues with your hired instructor. If you can’t talk to them about it, and if THEY are too afraid to talk to you (because you are not been completely clear that any topic is always open for discussion,) then you are setting up the situation to fail.

On the instructor FB pages there is a lot of unhappy farm owners who cannot keep instructors on staff. But the relationships are pretty dysfunctional at the start.

[anon68314200]

Good point.

[Scribbler]

@anon68314200

I agree. But there is a very vocal community of professionals who promote a narrative of “unprofessional” behavior. Largely…… farm owners (or established instructors) who have contract /employee instructors come and go, and clients go with them. Understandably, they are very unhappy that they struggle to keep a reliable stream of $ to support their very significant investment in property, tractors, lesson horses, etc. BUT they often choose to cope with the very real hazards and stresses of business ownership by blaming folks lower down on the food chain.

Well, if people are saying stupid things and venting online thats just typical

I see you are describing the situation where a trainer develops a client base out of the boarders and then leaves the farm taking the clients with them.

Well, the farm owners should realize that the trainer is the real draw, not the heated lounge or the CGT arena footing or whatever. The farm owners should realize that attracting and keeping a good trainer is key to the business. Trainers tend to move because the farm owner has made things impossible for them in some way. So this is on the farm owner

As far as the other situation? A BNT who is the “name on the door” but hires assistant trainers to teach most of the lower level clients while the BNT focuses on the top clients? Again, they need to make a situation where the quality assistant trainer is a valuable part of the business model and wants to stay. If the BNT is giving the assistant trainers a bad deal of course the assistant is going to head out and start up on their own. And if the clients go with them, that’s a clear sign that the BNT “name on the door” is of no more value than the heated tack room or snack vending machine or other amenity we would all do without to get good coaching. If the clients go with the assistant it’s obvious the assistant is a bigger part of their life than BNT.

In both these cases the BNT or BO needs to look at why they can’t retain the quality trainers that are crucial to their business model.

[OverandOnward]

From the client side … Instructors/trainers each have their own level. Some are well aware of that. Some don’t acknowledge it. It’s just how things work out.

I know of one trainer who regularly brings kids and adults on from beginner up to a certain level of competition. Then almost every one who wants to do more will move on. This trainer is constantly upset that she is being ‘poached’. She can’t see what the clients see – her students reach a mid-level of competition and don’t go on from there because they don’t feel truly ready. Their horses don’t feel ready. She doesn’t feel they are ready.

If they want to do more, each in turn moves to one of the pros who have riders at the higher levels of competition. With the same horse, within months the client and their horse have new skills and a big confidence boost and they are also doing the higher levels of competition.

The two pros who both have a client base at the higher levels never approach other riders. The riders go to them. Often at the suggestion of a friend who already rides with them.

The original trainer who brought them that far feels betrayed each time and has a low opinion of clients who leave her. And the higher-level trainers. Everyone on the region circuit but her can see what is really happening.

That’s not necessarily what is happening everywhere. But it’s easy for a trainer who starts people from the ground up to become a bit settled at that level, I think.

Of course there are some trainers/instructors who can take people from first ride to grand prix. But that doesn’t seem to be the usual thing, in my experience.

[sascha]

@anon68314200

farm owners (or established instructors) who have contract /employee instructors come and go, and clients go with them.

That’s not poaching. And unless there’s a really tight non-compete clause in the contract between the FO and the trainer AND the FO gets paid by the clients, then pays the trainer, it probably doesn’t even fall under that.

And even then, the non-compete is probably not enforceable because a client who doesn’t have a contract with the FO can go wherever the hell they like. And they’re quite likely to do that unless the FO has an even better trainer already lined up in the wings for a smooth and seamless transition for the clients.

It all sucks for whoever gets the short end of the stick (or perceives themselves to have received the short end) but it’s service industry in a nutshell. Employees/contract workers move on, sometimes clients choose to go with them. There can be a million reasons, and while some of those reasons may be due to misunderstandings/poor communications/etc., many are very likely legit. Up and coming professionals are almost always going to accept offers or opportunities that will help them grow and prosper. Clients often prefer an already established relationship and having to move their horses to the opposite of the same physical location with an entirely new management/trainer.

[Djones]

This is not unique to horses. Chefs leave kitchens and take valued clientele and staff. Physicians leave practices and do the same. Etc.

Horse folks are often certain that their game is different and special. They are incorrect.

[Scribbler]

Yes. And I follow hairstylists. I have no loyalty to the salon. I have even followed a hair stylist into their home based relocation into a basement. The salon amenity or name means nothing.

[atr]

And business owners alienate clients that their salespeople have carefully cultivated.

[McGurk]

I actively helped clients who had outgrown my niche program find other situations.

With clients that hadn’t quite outgrown my program, I helped them supplement what I offered with clinics.

“Poaching” to me means another professional actively soliciting one of your clients. Now, if your client is happy with you, it tends not to be very effective. The only time I really minded was if someone was having a bad day at a competition, certain other pros were prone to sidle up to them and mention that they could help them be more successful. Okay, a little sleazy, but again, if I was doing my job well, they’d want to stay with my program despite a bad day, understanding it’s part of the process.

My favorite poachers were the ones who were after my adult pony jock who schooled all the ponies in my program. She was tiny, ~100 pounds, could even ride the mediums and the smalls and she was a terrific rider.

EVERYONE tried to poach her away from me. I understood the impulse, as she was a very valuable resource.

I also find it ironic that some professionals view this as a major problem. Their were some clients who moved on that I was happy to see go, either because they weren’t a good fit or their expectations were unreasonable.

[Djones]

My husband ran a successful commercial electrical contracting business for nearly 40 years. He had great electricians “poached” and clients “poached” and I guess he did some poaching as well by giving great service and communicating and being responsive.

It’s business, not marriage lol

[Impractical_Horsewoman]

If an assistant trainer leaves and clients leave with the assistant, that’s just how new trainers begin their own, independent businesses. Unless the assistant truly only has ambitions to do part-time work, or solely focuses on children or a very specific demographic, trainers should be aware that the clients they farm out to their assistants aren’t “owned” by them.

I find the whole concept of poaching very weird and creepy. I used to take dressage lessons with an eventing trainer, and she expected and even encouraged her clients to take lessons and clinics with other trainers because eventing is a three-phase discipline.

There are many reasons a client might move on that have nothing to do with the trainer, even. Sometimes people get a different job and can no longer lesson on weekdays, but the trainer’s weekend schedule is full. Sometimes the client’s horse passes away and the trainer doesn’t have school horses and the client doesn’t want to buy a new horse right away.

The only time I would frown on a trainer soliciting or accepting business is if the trainer is actively bad-mouthing another trainer, spreading rumors and gossip, and that’s just unprofessional behavior, full stop.

[OverandOnward]

@Impractical_Horsewoman

The only time I would frown on a trainer soliciting or accepting business is if the trainer is actively bad-mouthing another trainer, spreading rumors and gossip, and that’s just unprofessional behavior, full stop.

The other thing some trainers do to actually ‘poach’ is to cheerfully speak to riders at competitions with some additional coaching tips, while the rider is riding. “I saw you at the trakhener. You know if you will xyz on the approach, you’ll get a smoother jump.” And/or chat with eventing riders during the course walk. However the communication is done, indicating that poacher trainer is a better coach than the rider’s own coach. Strongly hinting that the rider isn’t getting all the information they need.

The poaching trainer might even be correct about that. But it’s not a great look.

Another technique is to pay attention to which riders in warm-up do not have a coach. Speak to them in a friendly way. Offer a tip. Offer to set a jump for them. Maybe that’s more legit, but there could be reasons that the rider’s own trainer is on the way or was sick that day or something. Maybe the rider doesn’t have a coach, but maybe they do.

I’ve seen trainers in warm-up loudly call out instructions to their own rider – who isn’t even approaching a jump – that I suspected were really directed at another rider, not theirs, who is approaching a jump. Actually, me, and it was a good tip. lol

[Laurierace]

Not only this but there is nothing wrong with a client “graduating” from your program either. I was at a barn for four years where my horse absolutely blossomed and moved up the ladder. Eventually she no longer needed to be in a full training program however so I moved her elsewhere and the trainer wasn’t happy about that. I tried to explain it was a good thing but they didn’t see it that way.