The socialized puppy vs fully vaccinated puppy debate....

[saultgirl]

Miss Daisy has her first set of shots, second set booked for April 9th.

I am learning there is a wide range of opinions on when pup should be introduced to the world, from some people who don’t allow their puppies out of the house for 16 weeks (unless carried) due to fear of contracting a disease, to those who believe all is lost from a socialization perspective, if you haven’t done it all by 16 weeks!

I was in contact with a trainer this week who highly recommended taking the pup out to meet with as many people as possible, in a fairly clean walking area (not running loose in a public park), but to avoid interacting directly with unknown/unvaccinated dogs.

I have others telling me to wait until she’s at least 6 or 7 months old before bringing her to public places.

Right now I’ve decided that bringing her to visit friends/relatives at their houses is definitely ok (and I’ve done it already), and I have had a friend bring her dog over to visit.

I’m trying to decide whether to take her and walk her today in a few areas the trainer recommended as fairly clean/safe, for exposure to other people.

I understand that viruses can exist in the environment for some time after being shed, but current conditions would really limit that time frame, I think (it’s a lovely -17C (2F) again this morning, yesterday was even colder) not to mention conditions limiting the number of people walking dogs!

Of course I will wait until it warms up a bit before taking her out for an extended period.

Would appreciate any opinions on the matter!

[Laurierace]

That is a decision each person needs to make for themselves obviously but I have opted to do a little of both by taking my puppy everywhere he is allowed including restaurants with patios and Home Depot and having him interact with dogs that I know for a fact are fully vaccinated themselves. I do in home dog boarding which made it easier as all my clients are up to date with their vaccinations. My puppy is about to turn a year old and has long completed his vaccinations but we seem to be having a bit of a baby boom around here and three of my clients have gotten puppies this month. My vet advised me to have only one puppy at a time here so an unvaccinated puppy wasn’t exposed to an unvaccinated puppy. So far it has worked well.

[Belmont]

Please wait until your puppy is fully vaccinated. You can still do obedience training at home and socializing with people who come in your home and with fully vaccinated dogs. Parvo is EXTREMELY hardy. It kills me when I see puppy’s that aren’t obviously fully vaccinated out wondering parks, farmers markets, and training places.

A smart training facility doesn’t allow a puppy that isn’t fully vaccinated in its facility. Please, for the sake of your puppy, don’t take it all over the place. Of course, you can’t protect it from everything, but you can do your best to be smart and try.

Parvo is nothing to mess with and its expensive to treat, and if your puppy gets it, it is only your fault. We’ve had puppies get it after their second booster… Only to find out they never got their third.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Belmont;8076930]
Please wait until your puppy is fully vaccinated. You can still do obedience training at home and socializing with people who come in your home and with fully vaccinated dogs. Parvo is EXTREMELY hardy. It kills me when I see puppy’s that aren’t obviously fully vaccinated out wondering parks, farmers markets, and training places.

A smart training facility doesn’t allow a puppy that isn’t fully vaccinated in its facility. Please, for the sake of your puppy, don’t take it all over the place. Of course, you can’t protect it from everything, but you can do your best to be smart and try.

Parvo is nothing to mess with and its expensive to treat, and if your puppy gets it, it is only your fault. We’ve had puppies get it after their second booster… Only to find out they never got their third.[/QUOTE]

All the training facilities seem to be open to puppies with their 2nd sets of shots.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;8076928]
That is a decision each person needs to make for themselves obviously but I have opted to do a little of both by taking my puppy everywhere he is allowed including restaurants with patios and Home Depot and having him interact with dogs that I know for a fact are fully vaccinated themselves. I do in home dog boarding which made it easier as all my clients are up to date with their vaccinations. My puppy is about to turn a year old and has long completed his vaccinations but we seem to be having a bit of a baby boom around here and three of my clients have gotten puppies this month. My vet advised me to have only one puppy at a time here so an unvaccinated puppy wasn’t exposed to an unvaccinated puppy. So far it has worked well.[/QUOTE]

Since it sounds like you see a lot of dogs on a regular basis, do you find that the early socialization makes a big difference, or is it easy to “catch up” later?

[Laurierace]

I don’t really have any way to know what the dogs were exposed to and when so I can’t answer that question. I think what you are doing sounds like enough. You are exposing him to other dogs and people with your friends and family. How is he handling it so far? If any issues crop up you can deal with those specifically.

[wendy]

Oh, don’t wait. There is a huge difference in the way a dog acts and reacts to the world when heavily socialized before age 16 weeks vs. dogs kept in isolation. Think of it this way: the dog has a 100% chance of abnormal mental development if kept isolated versus a tiny chance of getting sick if taken out and about.

I didn’t think this was “an opinion” anymore? as of the 1980s all of the vets, dog trainers, behaviorists have been urging people to socialize, socialize, socialize those puppies. Practically all training facilities urge people to bring in puppies to puppy class for socialization. Because you can’t make it up later- if it’s not done before 16 weeks, the dog is basically ruined. The change in attitude is due to new studies on how puppy minds develop.

Most puppy classes they will give you a checklist of all of the hundreds of places and things your pup should be exposed to.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Laurierace;8076941]
I don’t really have any way to know what the dogs were exposed to and when so I can’t answer that question. I think what you are doing sounds like enough. You are exposing him to other dogs and people with your friends and family. How is he handling it so far? If any issues crop up you can deal with those specifically.[/QUOTE]

She’s a bit shy and cautious with new people, but she does warm up after a little while. That’s what has made me extra concerned about socializing – and after reading up on socializing I think she’s way behind. The list of things a puppy “should be” exposed to by 12 weeks is lengthy and complicated.

[Laurierace]

Take her to Home Depot and hand out treats to people who pass by. Make sure she is sitting quietly when they give them to her.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=wendy;8076945]
Think of it this way: the dog has a 100% chance of abnormal mental development if kept isolated versus a tiny chance of getting sick if taken out and about. [/QUOTE]

That is the way I’m starting to think about it. I was chatting with one lady who stated it would have been better for her dog to die of parvo as a puppy rather than life a fearful life. (It was a dog who had been rescued at one year old).

And Belmont, I realize it would be “my fault” if my puppy got sick. But putting it that way isn’t particularly helpful. It will be just as much “my fault” if I end up with a problem dog due to lack of socializing… and I am trying to make the best decision. I also understand Parvo can be tracked in on your shoes/driven onto the property on your vehicle tires/spread around by wildlife or the mailman, so theoretically an isolated pup could still get sick, and it would still be “your fault”.

[S1969]

There is a happy medium. You have friends with vaccinated dogs, so go ahead and let them play. You can also bring your puppy to places where she does not need to touch other dogs or people, so the risk is very low. I can’t tell exactly how big your puppy is, but you can carry your dog into places like PetSmart and walk around, etc. Let some people pet the puppy, but don’t expose it directly to other animals. Take the puppy to other places - people’s houses even if they don’t have pets, the barn, etc. Learning to ride in the car is a huge “socializing” skill - make all your trips as fun as you can for now so that she will be willing to go places.

Sidewalks are ok, in my opinion. Is there are risk? Sure, but if you’re watching your pup I would not be too worried. It’s totally fine to pick up the puppy for now when other dogs approach - strange dogs might have viruses, but they might also be scary. No need to allow for scary situations yet - she’s a baby.

Personally, I think the most dangerous places for puppies are dog parks and the vet. Keep the pup on your lap at the vet until she is fully vaccinated. Avoid dog parks entirely for now.

[saultgirl]

She’s too big to carry at this point (other than for very short periods).

I am definitely going to take her for a few car trips this weekend because she’s not that great in the car (I think she might get a bit nauseous).

I’m probably going to avoid dog parks entirely for always

[wendy]

yeah, don’t go to dog parks, but go everywhere else. There is a profound difference in the adult dog’s beahvior when properly socialized. Socialization cannot be accomplished by keeping the puppy home- the pup has to go places and see things. Socialization is not really about “playing with other dogs”, it’s about getting out and seeing the world.

[Tom_King]

Sounds like you are going about it wisely.

For whatever it’s worth, for puppies we keep, we only give the 16 week shot. After that, the dog gets titers. We’ve been doing this for 12 years, and so far the titers for the 12 year olds, as well as all the younger ones, still says that they are protected. So far, I have seen no other study done on the remaining effectiveness of a single vaccine.

[Belmont]

I can not believe I’m a minority in this. I guess I’ve spent too much time watching puppies die and decontaminating the clinic to think any other way.

Ultimatly, it is your decision wether 100 people tell you yes or no. Yes, people can track Parvo in, but your exposer rate is drastically lowered if you keep puppy home. I would also recommend going and talking to YOUR vet and discussing your concerns/issues.

Also, the blanket statement of waiting until your puppy is ___ weeks means you won’t have a trained puppy is utterly ridiculous. If that was the case, my grown dog would still be a rogue beast that had no idea about inside manners and sitting, waiting, and socializing. Was it a little harder? Yes. Did she learn pretty quickly? Yes. At 16-18 wks your puppy is still a puppy that had an easily changed brain… Unless you got yourself a not so easily trained trained.

I am 100% 1 way on this issue and I always will be because of personal experiences.

[arapaloosa_lady]

Have you read any of the puppy socialization articles by Dr. Sophia Yin? She was a brilliant veterinary behaviorist, and I absolutely adore her methods. Here’s one article to get you started: http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/puppy-socialization-stop-fear-before-it-starts

I would be careful where you take your puppy. No dog parks. No heavily traveled walking paths with dogs everywhere. But definitely socialize your puppy as much as possible in safe areas.

(one caveat: if you don’t have the money to treat for parvovirus, I’d be even more cautious with where I took the pup. On the rare chance your dog contracts parvo even with your reasonable precautions, you don’t want to make it a virtual death sentence by not being able to afford appropriate supportive care)

[S1969]

[QUOTE=wendy;8076973]
Socialization cannot be accomplished by keeping the puppy home- the pup has to go places and see things. Socialization is not really about “playing with other dogs”, it’s about getting out and seeing the world.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. There are tons of places to go that are not high risk - take your puppy to the non-doggy places for now; and expand into “dog places” later.

(school parking lot to watch kids get on/off buses, Home Depot, sidewalk in your town when it’s not busy, to visit friends who have kids, to play with your friends vaccinated dogs, etc.)

[Houndhill]

Here’s a great article more about the “how to” socialize:

http://www.clickertraining.com/dont-socialize-the-dog

You can do harm as well as good if the puppy is too frightened or overwhelmed.

I have used the Sophia Yin Puppy Socialization Checklist in the past. It is very comprehensive but I was able to do everything on it except one thing- people wearing Ugg boots! I guess I move in the wrong circles!

I am fairly paranoid but make myself take an eight to sixteen week old puppy to relatively low-risk places. Picking the puppy up becomes not an option with Irish Wolfhound puppies very quickly.

Although I knew my five week old puppy Vanga was most likely still protected by maternal antibodies (we had tube-fed her the dam’s serum after her C- section and she did get colostrum, whew!), when I took her to an opthalmologist last week I was paranoid, because the other side of the practice is a 24-hour ER. The puppy only left the crate for the actual exam, where she was placed on a disposable pad on the table. The vet pointedly mentioned washing his hand before he touched her, which I appreciated.

It is a challenge to balance the vaccination status with the need for proper experiences and stimulation at a young age.

I try to avoid going to dog shows when I have young puppies at home. Last week I had to teach a handling class at our local kennel club, and you would have thought I was exposed to Ebola. I stripped, showered, washed my hair, etc. I have different shoes that are worn off the property. I used to make people walk through bleach when they came over when I had young puppies, but now I just have them take off their shoes and wash their hands.

One thing to mention as far as places I consider higher risk, I try not to walk my dogs at “Rest Stops” when travelling. I don’t like the idea of all those random dogs eliminating in a fairly concentrated place. It can be a challenge to find a field or area that seems better but I usually try, especially with young puppies. If possible when I travel to pick up a young puppy, I don’t stop and walk them at all. I find they sort of “go dormant” in their crate for several hours and I feel safer not exposing them.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=S1969;8077035]
Exactly. There are tons of places to go that are not high risk - take your puppy to the non-doggy places for now; and expand into “dog places” later.

(school parking lot to watch kids get on/off buses, Home Depot, sidewalk in your town when it’s not busy, to visit friends who have kids, to play with your friends vaccinated dogs, etc.)[/QUOTE]

Yes, this is more my focus for now – people places rather than very busy “dog” places. Of course, there are some dogs around, but this weekend I’ll be walking on snow rather than grass/pavement, so I feel that further lowers the risk of transmission of disease. Paths on the waterfront that are plowed all winter must be pretty clean since everything is constantly getting scraped off.

[saultgirl]

Houndhill, thanks for the reference. Karen Pryor was recommended reading for me by the trainer I contacted, so I have been spending some time on that website.

I feel I have a working understanding of “approach & retreat” within a comfort zone vs “flooding” and will take care to make sure pup isn’t getting overwhelmed.