The socialized puppy vs fully vaccinated puppy debate....

[wendy]

my most stable-temperament dog was extremely well socialized- the foster parents took the entire litter of 13 puppies to malls, schools, and stores from age 4 weeks on as a way to promote their rescue. The pups saw everything under the sun while in the comfort of their litter and with their mother. When I got her at age 8 weeks, I continued the “take her everywhere” trend. She passed her therapy dog certification with flying colors with no effort at all on my part. My least stable temperament dog was isolated by the breeder until age 12 weeks. He never left the premises until I picked him up. Even by that tender age the lack of exposure to the world had left its mark.
You should read “The breeders guide to raising superstar dogs” by Jerry Hope. It talks about how the early environment of a puppy can be manipulated to profoundly affect how the dog turns out.

The major cause of dog deaths in our society is behavioral problems. Worrying about a minor risk of parvo or distemper is very unwarranted in our world. You need to worry about your dog’s temperament a lot more than about a tiny risk of parvo.

[LauraKY]

My cocker puppy went everywhere with me from 8 weeks on. She was a favorite at my parent’s retirement home, the bank, polo games. I stayed away from the stores that did allow dogs though (like the pet supply store) to avoid exposure to unvaccinated dogs.

We also had a couple of neighborhood dogs who were fully vaccinated and well cared for as playmates.

[cowboymom]

I don’t haul my dogs around anywhere, they live at my house. I absolutely cringe when I see dogs at Petco or Home Depot, HOME DEPOT seems to me the worst place to haul a puppy, all those people are walking around in their yards with their wormy unvaccinated dogs! :lol:

I am old school when it comes to dogs compared to the rest of this board. I don’t compete with them or show them or bring them everywhere I go on a leash, though half of them do ride in the truck with me everywhere. Even the dog that lived his first three years on a chain in the yard is a sweet kind well-behaved dog. Who will never set foot in Home Depot for any reason. If people come over, the dogs bark, say hi and go back to sleep. If they’re in the truck, they’re friendly to people. If we’re traveling they stay in the room or sleep in the truck, no problem. On the trail they run and say hi to other riders/hikers. What’s not socialized?

Having seen the results of parvo, worms, distemper, persistent giardia and dog bites in puppies I don’t feel an ounce of guilt for keeping my dogs home when they’re young.

[Horsegal984]

Got my latest pup out of a puppy mill bust. He had been there until 3 weeks, then raised in a vet clinic until 9 weeks when I got him. He showed his nervousness of new environments by acting VERY confidant and cocky. So he got another booster that week and started going lots of places with me. I work in a 24hour ER. I know full well the devistating effects of parvo. I also watched a 9 month old fully vaccinated by a vet clinic die from it. There are no guarantees in life.

I want to do sport/protection work with my pup. Which means he needs to be 300% comfortable with everything he may encounter so he can be sound minded enough to do bite work. So I kept his vaccines on a 3 week schedule, counted on maternal antibodies to protect him and took him out. He’s now a very healthy confidant well adjusted 6month old.

The other thing I did with him was used the Sound Proof Puppy Training app. It plays a wide variety of sounds, from storms and sirens to crying babies and construction equipment. You can also record your own sounds if there’s something particular you want him to be accustomed to. By 16 weeks I could have the volume on full blast and he’s passed out in his kennel without a care in the world about it. Was reccomended to me by my trainer and worth every penny! I highly recommend it for anyone with a puppy (or a phobic adult dog you want to recondition)

[wendy]

On the trail they run and say hi to other riders/hikers. What’s not socialized?

the running at strangers? very rude, an act of aggression, totally not acceptable. It’s a sign of a poorly trained and socialized dog. Properly socialized dogs don’t do that. They just stroll on by.

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;8077253]

The other thing I did with him was used the Sound Proof Puppy Training app. It plays a wide variety of sounds, from storms and sirens to crying babies and construction equipment. You can also record your own sounds if there’s something particular you want him to be accustomed to. By 16 weeks I could have the volume on full blast and he’s passed out in his kennel without a care in the world about it. Was reccomended to me by my trainer and worth every penny! I highly recommend it for anyone with a puppy (or a phobic adult dog you want to recondition)[/QUOTE]

I wanted to say thanks for this suggestion! I took miss Daisy out and she is definitely nervous about different sounds. It’s really quiet in my house (we don’t have tv so other than the odd internet video, there’s not much to listen to) so I found some “dog desensitization” videos to play as background noise this afternoon.

Right now miss Daisy is nosing around looking for the crying baby :winkgrin:

[cowboymom]

Nope, not at all, wendy. The other dogs are usually running towards us and the dogs all mingle while the riders/hikers say hi. Call it what you want but it’s SOP and harmless.

[Laurierace]

I was reminded of a puppy I had here recently. He was of course with his littermates and then with their adult dog who he got along with very but hadn’t had much experience with dogs outside of that. When he came here for his meet and greet he was timid but polite. Basically just cowered behind his older brother. By the end of the day he was not only playing with the other dogs but initiating play. He truly left here a different dog than he came. It will be interesting to see how he is when he comes back next time.

[Horsegal984]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8077280]
I wanted to say thanks for this suggestion! I took miss Daisy out and she is definitely nervous about different sounds. It’s really quiet in my house (we don’t have tv so other than the odd internet video, there’s not much to listen to) so I found some “dog desensitization” videos to play as background noise this afternoon.

Right now miss Daisy is nosing around looking for the crying baby :winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

I had to quit playing the crying baby at work because it was driving everybody nuts wanting to make it stop. :lol: I also have to be very careful about the cat noises at home or I’ll have the whole house going nuts. First time I played that one at home I came into the kitchen to find my little ACD male standing in the middle of the table cocking his head staring at my phone! :eek::winkgrin:

[saultgirl]

[QUOTE=Horsegal984;8077306]
I had to quit playing the crying baby at work because it was driving everybody nuts wanting to make it stop. :lol: I also have to be very careful about the cat noises at home or I’ll have the whole house going nuts. First time I played that one at home I came into the kitchen to find my little ACD male standing in the middle of the table cocking his head staring at my phone! :eek::winkgrin:[/QUOTE]

You should have seen the cats eyes bugging out when they could hear the vacuum but not see it :lol:

[saultgirl]

What’s ACD?

[Horsegal984]

Australian Cattle Dog (Blue/red Heelers). They’re smart and drivey, some more than others.

A photo of my crew, the one with the bow tie is the puppy and the one with the Santa suit is the one in the middle of the table.
http://instagram.com/p/xDPvEJFjrU/

[Houndhill]

Horsegal, the Sound Proof Puppy Training folks should pay you a commission!

I just downloaded the phone app, thanks so much. I just had my pup Vanga outside and she was afraid of the sound of the chain saw my husband was using nearby, so this should come in handy.

Years ago, I had a tape of different sounds for desensitizing, and one of the sounds they used was an elephant trumpeting.

Now I don’t know about you, but I’m not sure I want my dogs desensitized to elephants trumpeting!

This App looks good. I wish they had included the sound of applause, but I’m sure a competition-specific one would have that and I’m sure there is some generalization that happens.

My iClicker app has a “Noise Box” but no applause there either.

[cowboymom]

I do have to admit that my dogs aren’t shining examples of elite training. :lol: They do have a decent handle on them and can be controlled by my voice in every situation I’ve run into with them so far. What I was thinking was that they handle new situations well, they’re confident and good with people and children.

Where I lived before parvo was RAMPANT, as were fleas. One of my customers at the store I worked at had a Pomeranian puppy die of fleas at just a week old and I remember a couple years ago a Frenchie that got giardia at his Petco puppy classes (other pups had it) and he couldn’t shake it, he was in over and over for treatment and lost a lot of weight.

That influences my prioritizing health over socialization, for me. :yes:

[Marshfield]

My opinion might be different if I lived in other areas of the country. But, living in New England, I feel that for most dogs the risk of behavioral issues from lack of socializing is greater than the risk of disease from being out and about.

I typically start mine in the first puppy class available/open after 8 weeks of age. So, classes start after first vaccines. The places I train have puppies as first class of the day and bleach the floors the night before.

[saultgirl]

I appreciate everyone’s input on this. It’s a tough decision and I understand there is a gamble here.

I can see from yesterday with my girl, that socializing will be of the utmost importance. She was really nervous about the new people/places.

We’ve got another snow storm coming in today so I might just take her in the car to a few places.

[S1969]

[QUOTE=saultgirl;8078394]
I can see from yesterday with my girl, that socializing will be of the utmost importance. She was really nervous about the new people/places.[/QUOTE]

Don’t forget that she’s had a rough start in life. So it is great for you to recognize this, and you can actually start her just traveling out into the world so she can see things. Rushing her to be greeted by people or dogs might be too fast for her anyway…so that takes care of 95% of the risk factor out there.

Just bring her along to places you normally go, make it fun, give treats and lots of praise. As she relaxes doing that - you can start to introduce more stimulation in the form of people and animals. Have fun!

[Nezzy]

i agree with socializing early and often. I have had dogs from puppyhood that i chose to wait and make sure they were vaccinated first. they were not great at socialization. it is very important for them to learn it early.

[betsyk]

I think it makes a big difference where you live and what the prevailing culture is about dog care. If you’re in an area with lots of unvaccinated animals and strays, the risk would be greater. When my dog was a puppy, I didn’t know much about any of this except that it was easier to bring the two dogs along with me, rather than leave them home, so they went for car rides, they learned to wait (usually patiently…) in the car, get out to potty, run around a little if there was a good place to do it, meet and greet dogs and people and visit at other people’s houses (and get invited back). Dogs with different temperaments might not have handled it as well, but mine were absolutely “roll with it” kinds of dogs. It all makes me think about parenting, or raising horses - lots of different right ways to do it, and in the end, you have to read the animal/child you have and the situation you’re in and make some sort of decision that seems right at the time. There aren’t many absolutes.

[Laurierace]

I agree that there aren’t many absolutes but I would argue that your dogs and mine are roll with it kind of dogs because of what we did with them. My poor puppy got thrown into it last summer when we brought him home as we had 7 dogs here at the time. He was shy at first but warmed up by the next day and has been the life of the party ever since. If he had been showing signs that it was too much for him I would have backed off and eased him into it a little bit slower.