MHM- I am almost positive that you can set someone down for life. And as far as caffine is concerned, it is my understanding that it is a masking drug…so that is why it is illegal…not as a performance enhancing drug.
Portia- Question…if the trainer doesn’t sign the entry form…doesn’t give horse anything…owner does medicate horse…but trainer is obviously acting in a training capacity for the owner at the show, is he off the hook? Or would he still be responsible b/c he was “acting” as trainer?
Well, these “accidents” seem to find some of the same people at regular intervals 
Heck, I’m no nun and can see how screw ups happen…but if they happen at regular intervals to the same people and they spit up the same old same old excuse…I am less willing to accept their side of the story.
Fool me once shame on you but fool me twice? Shame on ME.
Be careful who you trust and deal with.
The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That’s the way it is.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WHISKEY POPPA:
Ok,but in fairness to all.Owner 1 spent $100k on their fancy hunter,owner 2 spends $500k on their fancy hunter.Trainer 1 is using said vet, who says try this brown bottle it will make your horse quiet,Trainer 2 feels the peer pressure and askshis friend trainer 1 what are you doing(giving everyone equal edge) Trainer 1 & 2 are happy their horses are winning and everything is ducky.Now no one knows what is in this brown bottle,which seems unbelievable to me anyone would give an animal something not knowing what it is,but winning here is key.Gotta make the owner happy.Now the testers show up and everyone is cooked.Trainer 1 &2 say I just did what DR. so and so said to do. I followed his directions perfectly.Now who is too blame???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Whiskey Poppa,
If someone (even a doctor) gave you a little brown bottle and whispered, hey, just a couple injections of this and you’ll be the smartest man alive and all the ladies will flock to you, but didn’t tell you the ingredients, would you do it? 
Would you give it to your child?
Who would be to blame if perhaps the outcome were less than rosy? Or, in your scenario, who will be to blame if the owner’s $500,000 horse turns up dead in the morning?
Up their noses? (I know this one for a fact… 
)
Bar bills?
Simply squandered? Horse things are expensive - from the tt rigs that many now own, to the tack, equipment and supplies. AND those expenses get higher and higher as people are willing to PAY for them - supply and demand… There is definitely a demand for image, and trainers have to be there…
Given that, DH has a point, however. I do know one very successful BNT who admits that she has had an easier time of it than most because she has always had a fallback to help her winter the storms (or survive the winters - especially pre-FL).
It’s OUT! Linda Allen’s 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!
It sounds like they even have problems enforcing the current suspended list.
I just called to see if they could tell me why my part leaser is suspended, which they couldn’t. And then I asked if she would be allowed to show my horse.
Answer was no, not even allowed on the show grounds and that the office would check the list to see if an entrant’s name was on it.
We are just podunk no name anything but still.
Odd that we’ve been to USAEq sacntioned shows 3 times, although she’s not always ridden my horse at them 
She’s been suspended for 3 years! Surely if she were a big name, they’d have noticed, right??
I left her a message that we need to talk. She could get us all in trouble!!
Gotspots,
I never implied that there wasn’t a line, I was originally addressing a comment by a poster who was outraged that an owner wouldn’t take action to prevent ‘drugging’ of her horse. My point was that the owner had placed trust in someone, as we all have to do on some level, and was likely not deliberately placing her horse, or herself, in peril. Somehow that point got lost three pages later 
I’ll second that Tackpud <BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Darker Horse - and even then you have to be careful - some horses are just lazy. I have two who routinely stand at the ring like that. Lip hanging, penis dangling, head down to their knees. We don’t give them anything - I do the night time meds and I don’t own any illegal drugs. Both are just really lazy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I’ve got one of those too. Sometimes stands at the ring with eyes, lips and penis at half mast. He is on no meds and does not get lunged. I am sure people think he is drugged, at least until he goes in the ring, wakes up and plays or spooks in the corner 
.
~~ Does killing time hurt eternity?~~
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
Repeat…Jane Clark and Robert Dover???
OMG…and very little shocks me…but this does.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Repeat… pentoxyfilene. Repeat… $500 fine and censure. No suspension.
Put it in perspective. Pentox is just glorified time released isox and is not one bit more performance enhancing than isox (legal to show on). In fact, you can show on pentox as long as you withdraw 24 hours before showing and file a D&M report. And since you give it for 6 weeks, and it lasts six MONTHS in the system, I think it is safe to say that it has its full effect for the 24 hours you withdraw it, and the USEF knows this.
I still haven’t figured out how the hell you get “caught” for pentox, but I figure you must a) think it is legal like isox and not file a D&M report b) you don’t care because you want that extra isox/pentox “edge” or c) there are issues with testing and time release drugs.
With a & b, $500 is a good price for stupidity. If c is the case, presumably the USEF will take this into consideration, or better yet, give pentox the same legal status as isox.
“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, in this case, the shows were under FEI rules, which means NO DRUGS AT ALL. I would guess that ist he main reason why this one had only a fine and no suspension, as it was not a performance enhancing drug.
While I think Weatherford’s suggestion is interesting I don’t see how it would solve the problem. Dressage scores are based upon a standard that is judged against. For this to work, judges would need to use standards to go by for hunters and a lot of this thread is pointing out the problem with the current LTD hunter standard being seen today. If that standard were to change, then this scoring system would not be as beneficial. Seems like kind of a catch 22 to me.
~~ Does killing time hurt eternity?~~
LOL Chanda, I understand your point about the car, I don’t know MUCH about cars, but I guess because I have always wanted to an informed consumer, I find it hard to grasp the concept of what people don’t want to know about their horses! Also, OT but I was almost “pit crew” once for Sammy Hagar’s son in a motorcycle race in Monterey… But I got really sick that weekend
Every barn I have boarded at has told me exactly what they give the horses, what they feel is best, and explained feeding/turnout/lessons etc…
One trainer was a CCI*** eventer and another trained with Jimmy Williams, and the others gained knowledge with other BNT’s, and I didn’t have to ASK them about their programs, because as a prospective client they told me. I was a working student for the trainer who worked with Jimmy Williams (Man I LOVE to pick her brain…) and I learned so much from her.
I do realize, however, that a trainer probably isn’t going to come out and say “and by the way, I drug horses if I feel it’s necessary” but as someone stated above, they are going to have to get a bill for it at some point! But I guess lots of people don’t go over their itemized bill, they just sign the checks. I also worked for a man who owns several top ten Arabian halter champions. One I worked with was a Canadian top 10 just this year. He chooses a trainer who doesn’t drug or use abusive methods. And his girls are retired to a posh barn to be brood mares and hang out in pastures when it’s dry out! He knows the aspects of his care because he comes up with each horses’ progeams himself. This is a man who has been in the business probably close to 30 years and has never even RIDDEN a horse. He could probably buy me a top GP jumper and sponsor me out on the circuit (too bad he only likes Arabs!) but I don’t think I could convince him even if I COULD ride GP lol! Anyway, if he DID buy me that horse, you bet your beans he would be involved. I wish more people would be like that. The show world would probably be a MUCH better place!
I also agree with the changing judging practices… But we can’t sit and talk about it, we need to DO something!!!
Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!’
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don’t think anyone who shows at C shows are going to drug their horses b/c it isn’t worth it to them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>HUh? I don’t follow your logic. If nything, I would think the C showers would, if anything, have MORE reason to drug.
Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
While you are checking out the Journal…check out the obits on the halter harses…wanna guess what they died of…YES founder…Can’t load them with steriods and make them hog fat without paying a price…And sont tell them their horses look unnatural…holy cow I got reamed and steamed on the pleasure horse boards for pointing out the obvious…they claim those head sets etc are “natural” …uh huh…
Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com
Lead, follow, or get out of the way…
We’re beginning to talk in generalites here. It doesn’t matter what the organization is/was called. If the current, about to change it’s name one sets a member down, it’s lateral. in other words, they are set down, period.
The vets who sell or give these meds that are illegal can’t be held responsibile. It is up to a living person to do the medicating. If they don’t, well said person is responsible. If in fact they show the horse medicated and are caught, they are the responsible party. And in many instances, some people have other resources other than vets to get their meds from.
DH you are right, we can’t point fingers at horses and say so in so is drugged. Not cool. But we can be appraised of certain NNT’s & BNT’s who have a history of doing this. And hopefully make correct decisions when looking for trainers.
We all want a level playing field, but unfortunately, as I posted before, this has been going on for a very long time. Maybe one of these days, a solution will be found. Nothing seems to have worked well so far.
The difference is, jumpsalot, you wouldn’t have shown your horse after the head injury
DH, I can’t believe your reacions. How can you not call what you are doing “not prolonged use?” HELLO! There are only 4 weeks in a month, and out of half of that, your horse is getting dex twice a week! How you can not think that that is prolonged use is beyond me.
People who use dex once or twice a YEAR, or for allergies once in awhile, or like jumpsalot, emergencies, are not prolonged use. I would not call using it an average of 48 times a year to NOT be “prolonged”. And I doubt all the horses in your barn have allergies. If they all do, then there is a deeper rooted problem that needs to be found 
Just because a horse is retired from the show-ring doesn’t mean that it has to be nothing a a trail horse or sit in a pasture doing nothing all day. And you know what? So what if it is? It may LOVE that! If not, you can keep it comfortable with other things besides Dex and have it be a schoolie at home, and maybe do some lower-level stuff and schooling shows.
Devilpups
We are now the Knights Who Say ‘Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv’
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
I’ve tried to stay out of this thread, but now I have a question. Does Don Stewart own all those horses listed? That’s a whole lot of horses…And who is Southern Sales?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Half of those horses Don doesnt even own anymore…and the other 1/4 aren’t in his barn.
To regress to my teen years:
“If you are not part of the solution, then you are part of the problem.”
Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
OK…dumb question that may already have been asked here…
Does anything happen to the VETS who give these drugs in cases where a fine/suspension is imposed? Do they also get sanctioned by USEF or by AAEP?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Giving drugs to horses is not against the law, just against Federation rules. A vet who has no relationship with the Federation cannot be sanctioned. He has not entered into any contractual relationship in which he agrees to abide by the Federation’s rules (as do owners and trainers when they sign an entry blank).
Now, a show vet might be different; it would depend on the contract he signs with horse show. But in the CC case, from what I understand, the vet saved the horse after a trainer gave the Calcium.
I am still trying to get my mind around someone almost killing a horse and then having it show the same day. I wonder what the trainer told the owner about what happened the night before and how it was OK to jump a horse who had come minutes away from death…
Unless the whole thing was hidden from the owner and the trainer paid the vet without sending the bill on to the owner…
I just cannot think of any scenario which sounds reasonable…
This isn’t directed at anyone in particular, but I am disgusted by some of the attitudes expressed on this thread.
I’m not naive about horses, and I’ve been on the inside of some big (eventing) operations, but I have to say that I’m stunned by the absolute lack of judgement and morals expressed in some of the comments on this thread.
There isn’t any excuse for breaking the rules for your own benefit. Keeping a client, saving a business – those are NOT justifications for administering prohibited drugs to horses. I’m sorry for trainers who are having financial difficulties, but it is their responsibility to maintain their businesses and play fairly. They should be good enough that they don’t need the drugs to win, have a good enough eye for horses and a good enough relationship with other professionals that they can buy horses that haven’t been druged in the past, and they should be honest with clients about the risks involved with horse ownership so that clients have reasonable expectations. In other words, they should be professionals.
It is NOT in the horse’s best interest to get a little bit of something to calm him down or make his feet sting less. It is in the horse’s best interest to get a break if he is sore, and the turnout or training he needs if he is hot or anxious about showing. If it’s not working, he needs a new job – not all horses are meant for high level showing, and it’s not fair to owners or other competitors, to say nothing of the horses themselves, to try to force them to be something they aren’t.
I understand perfectly well that horses have to do a bit of work for their livings. But it poisons the whole industry when drugging gets a wink or averted eyes. It may be better for one client in one class, or one trainer for one show, but in the long run it is bad for everyone. Until people on the inside are willing to take a stand, though, nothing will change. That is why I find it particularly disgusting when those at the top of the sport sneer that the rest of us are starry-eyed idealists who don’t know how the real world works when we suggest that use of forbidden substances is – gasp – wrong.
If you want to change the system, then by all means work to do so. I absolutely agree that the judging standards are unreasonable in some cases and that certain medications should be permitted. But in the meantime, either play by the rules or get out of the playground. Don’t claim to have no choice because business is tough or everyone else is doing it – no one is forcing trainers to go to A shows, and plenty of people earn livings, even in the horse industry, without resorting to prohibited tactics.
This industry needs a bit of self policing. I don’t think the internet is the proper place and I’m not advocating a witch hunt by the uninformed, but I do think that anyone who has explicit, first hand knowledge of wrongdoing has an obligation to report it, and I think that the authorities (USAE) have the responsibility to publicize and condemn it. --Jess
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anne:
Yes.
Adequan and Legend are legal and are given via injection.
Other drugs may be legal; it depends on the dosage and the timing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ketophen (sp?) would fall into that category as well.
“B***h in training”
