THE suspension list

Weatherford’s suggestion can be tweaked, too- for example, the score for each jump can and probably should include the approach - was it straight, was it rhythmic, was it smooth? So to get a 10, you would need also a brilliant and correct, straight approach, a snappy, round jump with knees high, lower leg tight, but not over jumping, and a quiet landing. Each jump’s score would start at the end of the landing of the previous jump. So a horse who played in the corner but was brilliant in the air might get a 7 or 8 while the horse who was smooth in the corner but not quite brilliant might also get 8. If the brilliant horse was mannerly the rest of the way, you would expect him to win, but if not, the smoother horse would get an edge on the manners score in the collectives and win.

[In dressage, even though we may think of a score as being for a “movement” like shoulder-in, the scores will also include say the corner before or after, even though it’s “just trotting” etc.]

It’s not necessary to have scheduled rides to make this work - just a scribe. Scribes are typically volunteers (and to enter the dressage judge program you need a certain number of scribing experiences). You have someone adding scores in the booth and you can have this all tallied in the same time as the judge needs now.

For that matter, hunter judges are already writing things, mostly using the arc vs line sort of notation. How much longer/harder would it be to write a number?

I don’t buy that, DancingPretense. There are plenty of trainers allowed to be on the show grounds to go around that can handle the current # of owners wishing to do the A Shows. Those suspended trainers are still making a living, just not literally ON the showgrounds.

B***h in training

Havaklu and DMK - I’m with you on the small amount of Ace issue. I’ve heard a number of trainers whom I respect as old time horseman mutter the same thing. Then at least the horses aren’t suffering from LTD or meds with bad side effects.

WELL! What a downer!

I know there are several employees of USA Eq on the BB. Would they like to chime in with the status of the proceedings (no names, obviously).

There is always the possibility that this is a rumor that is running out of control. Some word from those in the know could confirm the extent and current status of the alleged malfeasors (isn’t that a great word?).

Maybe I’m taking a big leap in here, and I have read this entire thread, but does anyone else feel that a lot of the “imperfections” cited here that supposedly drop a horse from pinning are the result of pilot/training error, and not something the judging standards should be condemned for? Or perhaps the question should be: Are we aiming to judge the horse’s performance regardless of what the rider causes him to do, or are the pair being judged as a team?

Before anyone gets disgusted and goes on the warpath, my point is basically that I agree no one takes time to fully develop a desirable riding partner, but then again, our lives are pretty hectic, people can be impatient, etc. I’m making no judgements. This is only an observation, and feedback is very welcome.

It’s really really hard and takes really good riding and training to get a horse relaxed, rhythmic and flowing over a hunter course at a useful pace. I think the current judging standards award the epitome of good training and riding, simple as that. A buck in the corner is a lapse in concentration and communication, allowed by the rider. Likewise, an uptight horse is unsure about his job and may distrust the rider, caused by a lack of experience or prior bad experiences, either through riding or training. A head shake could be a teeth issue (improper horsecare), resistance to contact with the reins being taken up (again, training/pilot error), or again lack of relaxation. A tail swish is discomfort or objection to a too-rudely-applied spur (and if the horse needed a rude “wake-up,” that’s a training issue). As pointed out, it may be OK for a greenie to lose concentration/resist momentarily, but not for a supposedly seasoned “pro” horse in the jr/amateurs or even the regulars. It shows a break in communication between rider and horse – either bad riding or bad manners resulting from bad or incomplete training.

Maybe a lot of people will disagree about pilot error/training, but if you watch someone at the top whose riding you really admire, rarely will the horse be allowed to focus on something else in his job and be allowed to get away from the rider to the extent he bucks. As more training is put under the horse’s belt, the communication between horse and rider to avoid the bucks and resistance, etc. gets more subtle and sophisticated and voila, the perfect hunter. If the horse just never can settle and focus, despite a rider’s best efforts, or is distracted easily, then he doesn’t fit the ideal of an obedient, pleasant and safe ride that the current hunter standards seek (and if we don’t agree that this is the basic premise, then of course there’s a good argument for allowing bucking, disobedience, etc.). And unfortunately, everyone’s striving to be a great rider/trainer, but many haven’t achieved it yet, so we see substandard performances that are appropriately penalized.

I think everyone agrees that a truly beautiful equitation round looks for the same thing a truly beautiful hunter round does, as well as a truly beautiful jumper round; the horse is asked to perform different tasks within these standards, but who has not recognized that when done well, all of them can be equally compared in execution and beauty? The point is getting the horse placed where he makes it look easy, rhythmic and flawless, so as to make the horse’s job – carting us around – easier.

The “dead horse walking” description, which I personally don’t think applies to the really good hunters, may simply be a result of people who misunderstand the standard and don’t ride with enough pace; I’m not even sure what exactly qualifies for “dead horse walking”: lack of pace, the unchanging rhythm? I’m just not sure. Maybe the outside-diagonal-diagonal-outside courses make hunters dull to watch. I haven’t been to the course thread that I’ve heard exists, and don’t know what’s been discussed there, but I agree more challenging courses would spark hunter rounds up without changing the ideal standard. Anyway, going back to the original point, it’s hard to achieve consistency, brilliance and manners at a good clip, so that’s probably why some rounds look dull.

Of course I have to throw in the caveat that I do not consider myself anywhere near this level of great riding, but I’ve seen it done and I aspire to it. I don’t mind that someone who can achieve a smooth lead change will place more highly than me, when my horse decided in one particular moment to resist our training and needed a spur poke for the change – he probably wasn’t truly flowing and tuned into me, which ultimately was my responsibility.

Finally, I’m NOT trying to be critical of anyone’s riding or training. Hey, we’re all on this planet working on something and trying to learn. I’m just pointing out I think the current standard truly seeks exceptional performances, which some of us aren’t up to par with yet. Of course, if we want a lower standard that will allow us to win despite our own errors, then that’s a perfectly valid point and nothing I would criticize. I’m just trying to say that we hold up an ideal that’s hard to accomplish and we shouldn’t be discouraged if we don’t ever see it perfectly executed. And when it’s hard to achieve, people will cheat by drugging a horse to numb it to outside sensations like the rider’s imperfect aids or potential stressors that time in training has not been able to fix yet.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by madeline:
The second contributing factor to this transmogrification is the proliferation of …<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Medeline wins the “Best Use of Four Syllable Words in One Sentence Award”

WELL DONE, Madeline! Your 3’ high gold painted aluminum statuette, with a fake silver nameplate on the bottom will be to you soon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hahaha. I get to learn new GRE words on the BB!

I think I am actually getting somewhere on these applications…but then again I may be lying to myself.
http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gosh, I learned that word from Calvin and Hobbes. Did I waste money on my college degree?

Thanks LucianCephus

Dear Lord Helpus- I agree with you totally about the BNT. I have had horses that have been horse of the year and have had trouble selling them. Why? It was because the trainer was greedy!!! I wanted X amount of dollars for the horse but the check from the buyers was never made out to me it was made out to the BNT.

I was really stupid because I never saw the check I always received the check from the trainer. What is ironic is this man is dead and in the Horseman Hall of Fame. Frankly he was abusive as a trainer to his riders and a crook!!!

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But there were some trainers who were recently led to believe something would not test when it actually would. I don’t think that means they did anything wrong. Of course they should have been more aware of what was in it. That is their bad but I don’t think that makes them cheaters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that is a very interesting choice of words. “Led to believe it would not test”. NOT “led to believe it was legal.” Very different.

If they knew it was not legal, but believed it would not test, then, IMHO, they deserve everything they get.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Thank you NinaL. As a working mother (for the most part working 2 jobs to afford the horse) I don’t have any more time or talent than the next person. And surprisingly enough, the biggest lesson I learned was that perseverance was the most important training tactic I have. If you put a horse on a steady logical training program, you will get results.

I think that part of keeping your horse “well and comfortable” DOES include necessary medications. If you can’t trust your vet, who can you trust? NOt all horses are 8 years old, and in the peak of physical health. I am all for the drugs and medications rules. If YOU have a headache, you take an aspirin…I couldn’t do ANYTHING with out a plethora of drugs for RA and an auto immune disease. So I guess I should go au naturale and sit in a corner and rock. It is naive to think that zero tolerance (except as defined by FEI rules of which we are all aware BEFORE entering competition) is the wave of the future.

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com

Lead, follow, or get out of the way…

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Because hunteers and jumperrs are run under “therapeutic drug rules”. Therapeutic drugs are permitted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One more question, what are therapeutic drugs?

Ok - I’m seeing some names on the list that are surprises but what seems odd is that it appears as if ENTIRE STRINGS of horses are being suspended along with XYZ professionals.

So what’s the story? Drug testing is random no? So if they are being set down for “drugs” how is it that ALL the horses were “randomly” tested?

The trainer is always free and able to say NO.

Any working people out there who want to do business with people who demand you do something wrong (or illegal, or unethical, or whatever) to get the desired results?

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogchushu:
However, I totally understand the need as a professional in my field (investments) to produce results. Where my disconnect comes from is that I would never think of violating the rules of my governing organizations (in my case, the NASD or the SEC) in oder to produce those results.

I’m sure the CEOs of Enron, Worldcom, etc. felt pressure to show results for their shareholders. However, I don’t think that makes their actions okay.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But to carry your analogy one step farther, FASB did sit with its thumb up its a$$ when it came to defining that which was illegal and that which was, well, a grey area…

And we don’t even want to tread down the path of GAAP and Statutory reporting!

But I do think the judging standards could be changed with some effect. No, it isn’t the magic bullet by any means. But if a horse that jumps brilliantly and finds 8 fences, but indicates that Pilot Effectiveness might play some part of that picture can place over an above average horse that also finds 8, I would be perfectly happy.

Do I think it would be easy? No. For all the QH judging standard is touted as a success, that rule was in place for a year with NO change in standards. Then the AQHA went after some judge’s cards. Then things sloooowly got better. I don’t see things being much easier in the h/j world because there is an economic disincentive. But that shouldn’t stop USAEq from pursuing it. It really is the right thing to do.

It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others…

technically speaking, I think they can still bounce on your head with reserpine. I’ll stick with dormosedan for clip jobs, thank you very much!

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan

ohhh ok I see the distinction now. I misread and thought you were making an attack on people who have their trainers ride their horses in the open divisions, then show them on the weekend in the amateur divisions. Sorry about that. There has been a lot of that on this board. And I do it!

What you were really getting at was whether it is appropriate to have such demarcations for the divisons (i.e. ok to make baby mistakes in the pre-greens/baby greens, but not in the AA and pre-AA classes). And your issue was that amateurs should be able to take their green horses in that 2’9 class and not be penalized for the baby mistakes.

That’s a tough one. Those lower level classes (pre-green, baby green) are offered that are clearly the “baby” classes, BUT, you’d have to take time off from work to show in them.

Most of the gals I know showing at 2’9 (pre AA) are on their way to the 3 foot, or do not have a horse that can do 3 foot yet.

I think that because there is a distinction between a “green” horse and a “finished” horse you’re just in a bit of a bind. Unless you can make time to show your greenie in the open classes that are marked for greenies.

Good luck with your greenie tho - greenies are TOUGH. I think anyone that can get their greenie around the ring is clearly a good rider. I can’t even get my greenie around the right. /sigh


LondonHannahKirsche
Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!

From what I hear, they have samples from 5 years ago and plan to retest them.
Yep, 5 yrs ago they didn’t have the technology they have today for testing illegal drugs.
So if the horse was given a drug 5yrs ago that was not detectable…it is now!

Dana, having had a hearing is only mid-way in the rules enforcement process, coming after the complaint is filed and after being charged, but before the decision is issued or punishment enforced.

After the hearing, the hearing committee issues its findings and suspension judgments, the party has an opportunity to appeal, and so on. Unless the offense is something very severe (or one of the automatic suspensions for failure to settle an indebtedness), the suspensions are very seldom immediate. Most often, they are set for the same period in the following year which would cover the competition at which the infraction occurred. This gives the folks affected time to get their vacation plans ready, so to speak.

For example, at Pin Oak 2002 a certain someone from Texas got into a, shall we say, lively disagreement with an official. The official filed a complaint, they went through the hearing process, and the individual was suspended for one month, which was set for the period including Pin Oak 2003.

[I]Who figures an immigrant's going to have a pony? ... Why would anybody come here if they had a pony?  Who leaves a country packed with ponies to come to a non-pony country? It doesn't make sense... am I wrong?"[/I]  Jerry Seinfeld [img]http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/img]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake’s Dad:
you know i had a horse that loved coca cola …and i thought it was great that he did ,and i thought it would make a great ad. than im told that i could be suspended for giving him a drink of cola…i thought they were pulling my leg …but they were not joking…the suspension list could have a lot of this bs…and the fines will help pay the deficit…5000 times 60 hmmmmmm…snowbird said that they needed a million dollars…well they are working on it …<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jake’s Dad:

Usually the fines are small, when imposed, more like $500 than $5000. And, the fines are smallest if they believe there was no intent.

Although it’s true that soda is a prohibited substance that would appear in a drug test, I can’t recall ever seeing a Notice of Penalty for caffeine.

By far the majority of people on the suspended list are there for bouncing checks and failing to make good on them.