“I was VERY active at QH shows back when Reserpine was the drug of choice. It became quite easy to identify the horses which were on Reserpine. It has some obvious side-effects.”
Okay, I guess I must be naive (sp?) but what are the obvious side effects of reserpine.
My new barn mantra…MYOB MYOB
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by bassy:
Have to add, if a trainer isn’t a vet, there is no reason they can be expected to administer medication.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I became a pro at giving IV shots while working for various trainers…and some of those shots were even legit 
It is very useful to know how to give IV shots, especially for colics and various infections that need long courses of antibiotics. 40cc Dipyrone quickly given can save a lot of headaches. Knowing how to give shots saves a lot of money too. Having the vet out 2x per day for a few weeks to give penicillin or some other antibiotic is a pricey prospect. Much easier and cheaper to do it yourself or have your trainer do it.
ummmm yeah. I totally need someone to do these grad school admissions essays for me 
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I certainly would not expect or want my vet to make a treatment plan based on what is “legal for showing” in the eyes of the USEF.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmmmm… Then I fully expect to eventually see somebody’s name on a suspension list at a theatre or drive-in near you. 
Seriously folks - you GOTTA check with your vet if you even think a horse s/he is treating might be ready to show. If I’ve had a vet call for a minor injury (to which my TB is preternaturally prone) and I’m a month out from a rated show, you bet I’m going to ask the vet what s/he is using and how far out that will test. It’s only prudent nowadays.
Thoroughbreds! Everything else is just a horse. :-)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wow, War Admiral, good job taking one paragraph out of a whole post, quoting it out of context and then implying that I would end up on the suspension list. At least that is how I read your comment.
I don’t know whether to be outraged, baffled or strangely amused. I guess I will settle for baffled because, really, my mind is boggling right now.
Care to clarify your remark? Was it pointed at me? Because my horses could show under the zero tolerance rules. Okay, the 11 year old gets Nimble as a preventative joint supplement but the other horse gets nothing. If (knocks wood furiously to stave off the horsie injury gods) one of them required treatment the last thought in my mind would be if my vet could figure out a treatment that would not result in a positive test. I would get a list of the medications and then contact the USEF with them. That is the relatively definitive answer. Notice the word relatively.
I really, really doubt that many vets would give you a time frame on drug clearance (talk about the liability if a trace of a prohibited substance would be detected). I would hope that the vet would refer you to the D&M committee (witness the fact that Reserpine went from being detectable two weeks out to, what, 45 days out?). And, you know what, the D&M committee is only going to give you guidelines. The only, definitive way to tell that your horse is clear of a prohibited substance or is within the allowable therapeutic levels is to have the blood tested by the USEF’s lab.
Hmmmm. That might not be a bad idea. Make the screening tests available at a profit to the USEF. If it costs $350 to run the tests then have them charge $500. Might be a good service to offer. I’d love to have access to their labs for a prepurchase examination.
Nina
But J.Turner - very few horses are naturally suited to doing the hunters. It’s just not natural for a horse to go around a 3’6" course looking like it’s dead, and then crack it’s back over the jump in perfect form. So, these trainers are trying to copy those few natural ones without having to put too much time into it. Is it right? No. But if every horse did what it was naturally suited to do, a huge percentage of the hunters would be doing the jumpers and we could kiss the hunters good-bye… And that’s also not to say that jumpers aren’t drugged either. This isn’t just hunters we’re talking about!
People and judges need to lower their standards for what a hunter “should” look like, but that just doesn’t look like it’s going to happen.
Some trainers become very defensive when even the most innocent of questions is asked about their horse’s care… and show bills are often not itemized. The fact is that you can never really be sure what’s being done to prepare your horse for the showring, for a lesson at home, etc. So I don’t think holding the owner responsible is fair. Some trainers won’t even let the clients/owners discuss their horse’s care/soundness issues with the vet either. Some vets don’t feel that owners are “educated”
enough to bother with… To me, it all boils down to one thing and that is integrity…or the blatant lack of in just about every facet of the horse business. Too bad for the horses, their owners, and lots of other people involved in horses. And I totally agree with the previous poster who suggested that one can try very hard to look for, investigate and eventually choose the right trainer, and then still be wrong about the person! The problem is that it’s always about the money…and rarely about the horse.
It makes me ill, too, but as we saw last year at WEF w/ PV coaching in that eq. class for GP riders, it WILL happen. (Sorry to bring it up again, but that left the WORST taste in my mouth of any piece of cr*p I’ve ever eaten in defense of this sport…)
“No horse with cart horse blood inside three crosses can stand an extreme test against horses bred for Epsom Downs and the Metairie Course…”
–Marguerite Bayliss, The Bolinvars
Phenobarbital is also a controlled substance as it can be addicting. Apparently it’s used to control seizures in cats and dogs (as well as humans). One web site (here) describes it as a sedative and includes a list of drugs that should not be taken concurrently. This list includes phenylbutazone (“bute”).
The same site also has a listing for prolixin (fluphenazine).
there are PDR and other Pharma books for vet products.
PDR and
Veterinary Drug Handbook 3rd edition Donald Plumb
they are not as comprehensive as a drug package insert but they index much of the info qickly
It is hard to keep up on all the new drugs and possible drugs. Some of them are being used off label so not listed in the vet PDR, you need human.
Wow over 100,000 views. That alone says something
_\]
– * > hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.
The fact is the rule says anywhere on the show grounds. They have when been here to take samples frequently taken my school horses that were not even entered in the show. But, any horse on my farm is fair game.
They have been here and taken samples from horses on the trailers not entered in the show. Why should Florida be different than Snowbird?
Battle Scarred Veteran
(edited to add the following)
(*)stack = the practice of using more than one anti-inflammatory at a time. It is against the Fed’s drug rules to do this with certain drug combos, except when the second drug is salicylic acid (metabolite of acetylsalicylic acid, AKA aspirin). Hmmm…then, if dex is an anti-inflammatory, then you can’t use it in combination with bute, banamine, etc.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It is a steroid. The rule applies to NSAIDS. Why do you think the drug is legal?
For itches and for use for its anti-inflam prop.
Why D’ya Do It?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darkerhorse:
I have a question… What would LSD do to a horse?
Would it improve a horses jump because it would have a bit more ‘spook’ at the jump?
<G>
Sorry I coudn’t resist posting this. The question just popped into my head and it seemed funny.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Darkerhorse, unfortunately, having been around in the 60s, I happen to know the answer to this. 
And that answer is, you sooooooooooo don’t wanna know. In the instance I’m thinking of, the horse broke his leg and had to be euthanized.
“No horse with cart horse blood inside three crosses can stand an extreme test against horses bred for Epsom Downs and the Metairie Course…”
–Marguerite Bayliss, The Bolinvars
LH…I just go to Edit, select “Find on this page,” and type in today’s date. Voila. The hit parade for 01/01/04 includes Gary Young, Sandra Lobel, Thomas Johnson, Darren Dlin, and Robert Crandall.
Thanks again all for another day of entertainment.
Snowbird-what’s in the air you breath up on that mountain?
Me, I think I’ll just sit back and wait for this thing to come full circle.
I have to agree this thread has gone on for too long without citing facts, but I don’t think that’s because there is no cause for concern – I think it’s because the USAE hasn’t posted/printed the news, and it’s against BBoard rules to post unsubstantiated information –
We talk about it being the owners responsibility to be informed before entrusting our horses to a particular barn’s care or trainer’s program – Yet, how are we to become informed if this information is not published? – I almost bought a horse off of one of the people I’m told is being suspended – I only ‘know’ he’s been suspended because his clients have been out looking for new trainers –
Heck, Chanda, I take time out of my day to read and post because I get alot of conference calls I have to monitor.
But you have a good point, I am likely not the “average” client. But the fact that I want to learn more and be more educated is separate from the obligations, bordering on fiduciary, that my trainer or coach has to me. When I put my horse in that trainer’s hands, he or she has an obligation to me, and one of them is to keep me informed about the decisions concerning my horse. I do not need to know about their decisions that are de minimus. But I do need to know about the decisions which are not minor, such as the decision to break a drug rule. Perhaps the key question here is where the line gets drawn, and I think that for all riders, for all owners, it is drawn at a minimum where the trainer’s actions expose the owner, rider, or the horse to some unforseeable or unreasonable risk, or where the trainer’s actions expose rider or owner to liability for breaking a rule.
Sorry, I should have been more clear in my attempt to be a bit less serious on the subject.
Adequan and Legend are indigenous to the horse.
You are absolutely right that nothing can be administered while in the FEI stabling. However, at most shows (ie those with FEI classes that are not completely FEI competitions) the horses do not move into the stabling until before the jog, usually a tuesday or wednesday before the sunday event. My point was directed to the common misapprehension I see on these boards that needle=bad.
Googled dexamethasone.
One of its listed uses is as an anti-inflammatory, so maybe people ARE using it as a “legal” way to stack(*) anti-inflammatories. However, it apparently should not be used in combination with bute or other NSAID’s (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs) as it increases the chance of ulcers. (reference to NSAID contraindication)
(edited to add the following)
(*)stack = the practice of using more than one anti-inflammatory at a time. It is against the Fed’s drug rules to do this with certain drug combos, except when the second drug is salicylic acid (metabolite of acetylsalicylic acid, AKA aspirin). Hmmm…then, if dex is an anti-inflammatory, then you can’t use it in combination with bute, banamine, etc.
It occurs to me after reading most of this thread that the drugging issue is somewhat like speeding. I go over the speed limit all the time and got away with it for years. Then last year I got two speeding tickets in the space of two months. Now I am very careful. I think the same thing has happened to the BNT’s - they have gotten away with drugging for years and so they kept doing it. Now they have to pay the price and MAYBE they, too, will be more careful, i.e. honest, in the future. We can only hope.
“Why am I so soft in the middle when the rest of my life is so hard.” Paul Simon
Yeah - and next thing you know, PV will be on the Ethics committee…
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus: This inquiring (but unimaginative) mind wants to know…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
bad checks
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