THE suspension list

As far as punishment goes, I think the horse (rider if eq) should lose all points accumulated that year and start again at zero. Test the winners. This makes drugging “riskier” as time goes on.

I don’t think the horse should be encumbered with any punishment that would affect a sale (such as future testing) because it would be a good thing for the horse to leave the people that were drugging it.

Also, with the storing and post testing, this could be a headache in and of itself, with a much increased risk of a faulty test due to human error or the nature of storing the samples.

About horses mistakenly being given a drug, it can happen and easily too I might add.

I’ve got a friend whose husband is a race horse trainer. He usually feeds everything himself (small small barn). Anyway, one day he got tied up somewhere and the head groom (who has been there forever and is very good)accidentally mixed up some of the feed buckets. One horse was sore and wasn’t going to race and needed some meds, the groom mixed up his feed with one that was to be racing the next day. Luckily the trainer walked in right before he dumped the buckets into the feeders. He almost had a heart attack. He would have been set down for 30 days or more with a positive drug test at the track, no questions asked. It would have been a truly accidental mistake but he would have had to take the punishment because alas, he’s responsible for the horses in his care.

We are humans and make mistakes. Of course, if it continues to happen to the same trainer etc. well then that is a different story. Now, one trainer that was caught one time over a 20 plus year career, depending on the drug, maybe it is a mistake. It’s easy to mix things up, especially with a bunch of horses, some showing days XYZ and off ABC and others showing days AB and Z but off the rest. It can get pretty complicated.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
Exactly batgirl. Also, if the adult eq class did ever take off and expand into a division (unlikely, IMO, but IF), you could probably time with a stopwatch how quickly the prices would go up on those eq horses that aren’t quite good enough to be top junior finals mounts.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But amateurs don’t have a time limit on their division the way juniors do so buying a green horse or one off the track and spending 4 years making it up into their eq mount is no big deal. Even if it takes 5 or 6 years, again no big deal.

I thought it was the time factor that made the junior horses worth so much, really.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The Hunter Judge is there to sort out the placings, NOT to give a lesson. running for cover now <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Dressage judges are not SUPPOSED to “give a lesson” either, but some of them just can’t help it. IIRC they have to gve a comment (“what was wrong”) for a score of 5 or less.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Thanks, Portia. Now I’m wondering how Dex fits into the routine maintenance schedule of a healthy show horse.

The actual cost to the Federation of each blood test is approximately $350 (if I remember Dr. Allen’s testimony correctly from the USOC hearing). It’s by necessity a very sophisticated testing regime.

That’s why they cannot test everyone – unless you’re willing to pay something upwards of $350 per horse per show – but instead they a collect a relatively small drug fee from each horse at each show, to defray the cost of testing among many horses.

People can be suspended for life – Barney Ward, Paul Valliere, George Lindemann, Jr., and most of the others in the horse killer cases are suspended for life. As far as I know, if the hearing committee finds the offense is severe enough, they recommend suspension for life, and then (I think, but I’m not sure) that it is then reviewed and approved by the Exec Comm.

I believe that at least some of the people who are suspended for life have the opportunity to reapply for membership after a certain period of years and may be readmitted if they show proof that they have reformed and done things to help the welfare of horses, and so on.

I really wish the list would include WHY the people have been suspended. A barn in my area, along with its owner and all her horses, has been suspended. I really wonder what she did. Did she forget to pay some bills, or did she do something terrible? No one will ever know whether she’s a horse abuser or just down on her luck. In the interest of consumer advocacy, I think the offenses should be made public. Perhaps then, getting suspended wouldn’t be just a slap on the wrist.

Heart in a horse is every bit as important as it is in a person. ~Jimmy Cruise

There’s one horse, Welcome Aboard…

Ditto, Madcat. We don’t all have equal amounts of money, but we all have 24 hours in a day, so someone can substitute a lot of hard work for money and still be very competitive on a lesser quality horse.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duffy:
I’m sure the newly suspended BNT’s will set up shop just off the WEF showgrounds this winter and do very nicely, thank you very much…

B***h in training”<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe PV can make a nice living subletting stalls. He has certainly proven that his facilities are easy for people to get to the show rings from…

PS: My eyes crossed trying to read even 1/10th of that list. I don’t suppose anyone can email or PT me with the down and dirty about these recent suspensions that will take place this winter?

Who, for what, and when were they caught? Is it like the Devon/Reserpine massacre many years ago? Inquiring minds want to know…

You are right PatsyStone. That is why I don’t actually hunt my ‘show hunter’. He wins in the ring because he fits the standard (or norm) of a ‘show hunter’ by 2003 standards.


“I’m not going to have reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president.”
– Hilary Clinton

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clearound:
Not that I show there, but what effect do the suspensions have with their running/owning the Littlewood shows?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was wondering the same thing. Their suspensions are right during the busy pre-circuit season. I did notice that they were not included in the list of suspended management. Does this mean anything in terms of running their shows?

~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump

Doesn’t sound, LaurieP, like the animals you knew on it were on it long enough to have the problem…

I knew of it in a very well-known pony hunter (I will NOT name names) and a top Jr Hunter/Big Eq horse of the early-mid 70’s… The latter was owned and sold by my friend to another friend, who only with 20/20 hindsight figured out what the problem was - horse lived to a ripe old age, as she wouldn’t sell him on… My friend who originally owned him, I don’t think, ever realized her trainer had him drugged the whole time…

It’s OUT! Linda Allen’s 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!

The real question should be - if you can’t trust your trainer, who should you trust

Someone said this in an earlier post. As a trainer, not sure if I am a NNT or BNT, but I own a farm and run a successful young horse operation, showing on the line, and going to “C”-“A” shows and fixing horses people have broken or dumped or that they can’t sell. I find the problem with the whole industry is the lack of patience we ALL have. Can’t wait for said horse to be fixed, or shown (without meds) or to move up to the next division, or to get a great ribbon OR WHATEVER the owners goal is. I find that VERY FEW customers listen to the trainer and follow what they are saying when they are HONEST… I am BRUTALLY HONEST. I have a few VERY LONG TERM customers that are with me BECAUSE I am honest. The industry caters to telling people “Suzie rides great, she will do well next time” or the horse is perfect " he just needs Suzie to get more consistent" etc.
When you tell people the truth and then go about working to reach a common goal, the owner 50% of the time interferes in a negative fashion. We as trainers need to be selective about who our customers are, and you as customers need to do your research BEFORE you go to the trainers barn. I am open to discuss what I am doing, I am open to change if it is in the best interest of obtaining goals. I am not open for open target shooting practices. You are supposed to give me time to achieve your goals and your supposed to be monitoring my progress and how I am obtaining them. If your horse is for sale for 40K plus without a substantial show record, was in an area without alot of traffic, no one knows the horse, and it has a few issues, and you are aware it has SOME issues, don’t expect me to fix it, show it and sell it in a matter of a few months. It didn’t take just a few months to get it doing nothing, so it sure isn’t going to take just a few months to make it stellar. I hate sending out progress videos as now the owner hashes them apart. I like to send the finished product and then show and sell the horse. How many owners are patient enough to wait? I also do this if I like the horse for a 10% commission and less than half my training board. If you want an ideal situation that works in your favor you need to work with the trainer. We are hired to train, let us do our jobs. If you don’t like the job we are doing via the condition of your horse, or how it is performing, or it looks or how it does in the ring, leave us and go someplace new. Talk to us along the way, tell us your concerns. I dont’ want to be asked what bit I am riding the horse in or how we are riding the horse, but I do want to be asked, how do you think he is progressing, what is he doing BETTER than when you got him? Therein lies the answer your looking for. If you have an honest trainer, and they say NO PROGRESS has been made, then you may want to move him, drop the price, or rethink the situation. If the train says “we have a new horse on our hands, I am very pleased with the progress” you have a GREAT ANSWER. If your not going to BELIEVE it, that is YOUR problem NOT the trainers. It is your job to go watch, attend the show, whatever it takes to monitor how it is going if you dont’ TRUST the trainer. A trainers nightmare is someone who isn’t listening to what is being said. If you ask us the right questions, I am sure you get the right answers. I have wonderful conversations with an owner who has 3-6 horses with me every year, and has a farm in Ocala. She visits periodicially, attends some of the shows and asks POSITIVE questions and tells me her goals and we work mutually to obtain them… However, I have her TRUST. We broke and started her 3 year old horse that she’d like to sell, took him over some jumps, and started his changes. I said he wasn’t ready to be shown or sold yet, she asked more about what I liked about him and why I’d like to give him off for the winter and restart him at 4. I explained everything according to her goal for getting X dollars. It was simply not going to happen at 3 without pushing him. He went to FLA and will come back in the spring to restart, show and sell. I would say those conversations took a total of 10 minutes and she always calls to say how pleased she is about all the decisions I have made. Doesnt’ anyone get that it is not in our best interest to make BAD decisions for owners, or lie, or cheat, or medicate if we are a KNOWN barn to do things differently? My reputation would be shot. I dont care about what happened with your last trainer, it isn’t my business to get involved, that would be unprofessional, it is my job to help you achieve your goals which before you enter my program I tell you I can or can’t achieve up front and make a recommendation to who to go to if it is out of my league. But yes, the moral of the story is 2 fold it REQUIRES TRUST AND PATIENCE on the TRAINERS end AND the CLIENTS END for a relationship to be mutually beneficial. Similar to marriage eh?

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

Someone on the other thread suggest a three strikes and you are out rule. Followed by someone else saying that the association wouldn’t want to lose that much money and that “A” shows would become dead/non-existant.

What do you think?

http://community.webshots.com/user/ridenyc

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WIndward_1998:
It should make for some interesting reading in the next issue.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I definitely agree. After everything I have heard about it, I think there will be a lot of talk once the next issue comes out.

Just got out of the first part of the Drugs and Meds meetings at USEF…

A conversatin that GOT NO thumbs up from the competitors BUT the Vets want…

Only a vet can give IV shots on the show grounds…much resistence.

Much conversation about ALL vets who treat competition horses must be USEF members ad sign in at the off ice if they are on grounds.

Just a quick update…more later.

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

I’m not sure the increased show schedule/lack of turnout is really the root of the problem. Back in the late 60’s/early 70’s when there were not as many shows and there still was some land that wasn’t at a premium, there was instituted a new program within the then AHSA.

That program was drug testing. Someone, way back then, must have discovered there was a need to initiate such a program.

I have read some very good proposals on this thread, agree with those who think most horses show too much today, aren’t fit enough or are poorly managed.

I also believe this is not a new issue, nor will it ever go away. As long as there are rogue chemists and trainers willing to play Russian Roulette, so to speak, with the “newest” product some veterinarian (or physican) is peddling, I’m afraid we will always be dealing with the illicit use of medications both inside and outside the horse world.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:
We can’t ALL be above average. So what about the poor average-and-under folks out there?? (Sorry, I had to say it.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I assumed we were grading on a curve, so that put average further back a bit…

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG. ROTFLMAO

Why D’ya Do It?

aahhh-Thanks!