Actually I didn’t count, once of our dear departed members of this particular BB did it for me… 
I know that last spring, when George got hives, I gave him Dex for several days to control them while he showed.
Within a week, he had lost all of the hair on his butt (an affliction now known as “GeorgeButt” 
) and about 1/2 the hair on the rest of his body.
The internal medicine experts at Rood and Riddle told me that his immune system has been suppressed by the Dex, allowing “dermatitis” to turn into allopecia (sp?).
The next time a horse gets hives, he stays home and recovers. He does not get drugs to show.
I just had a thought (I know, I know -- a dangerous thing [img]http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif[/img])
Why does't everyone, from A rider/owner to local circuit novice riders ASK their trainer what meds (if any) have EVER been given to their horse within 48 hours of going into the show ring. And look them straight in the eye while asking the question.
Then they can get back to us with the answers (and with their opinion on whether or not they believed the answer they were given).
I asked my trainer last winter in Ocala this question. He answered me and I believed him. Since George was on a bunch of weight gain stuff and I was not familiar with all the ingredients, I also specifically asked him if anything he gave his horses was illegal. He said "no" and I believed him when he said that.
Let's see how many other posters can say the same thing, and give us the names of their trainers.
My trainer was Don Sheehan.MHM - I agree. I LOVE to watch anything Scott Stewart is riding. I’ll never forget when he rode Dialog L at Middleburg Classic - he truly was the epitome of brilliant!
What I was saying is that most of today’s riders still lope around the course (esp. here in VA). You’re also right about the good ones galloping. Not many horses can get a nice round jump like Strapless off the gallop!
you know this story sounds like other story i use to hear in basic training…the horse went down in the aisle…the vet was called he gave him a shot and brought him back to life…he was in a class in the afternoon and got a ribbon.i dident see it …but i was told it happened at 4 am …hmmmmm question how come we never heard anything about this ??? for some reason the part i dont belive is …he went in a class and won a ribbon…wait …the bnt or the horse.
Nigel practically pees on command when you bring him back from work. If you put him in the x-ties or washstall he will pee almost guaranteed. I usually stick him in his stall for a minute to see if he has to pee. He is a drug testers wet dream, literally.
“When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes.”
– Shakespeare, Henry V
To whoever said drugs make shows not fare…
… life isn’t fair. quit bitching.
i heard todd minikus was suspended as well, for a year, but i didnt see him on the list?
Tipperary
Hey, I am not condemning anyone in particular. I understand that mistakes CAN happen. I was responding to the comment about people who entrust the care of their animals with people who use drugs. If they didn’t know about it, I can understand that. However, having had a cocaine addict for a father when I was younger, I know what people are like when they are users. I know how horrid the stuff is and I would NEVER let anyone anywhere near my horses if I found out they were users. My father died when I was 8 years old because of drugs. I hate them and they are a touchy subject for me.
If someone gets set down and it was truly a mistake, the honorable thing would be to announce that it was a mistake, and then respectfully accept the punishment because for whatever reason a mistake occured and an illegal substance was found in their horse’s system. Is it fair? Well, yes and no.
I am not specultaing as to who or why, I will wait until the truth comes out. I was just shocked that people would let drug users take care of their horses. That’s all.
Devilpups
But I can handle the perile!
No you can’t, it’s too perilous!
I agree, The COTH should do an article… But it is probably something they will avoid…
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Caffeinated:
I find it sad and troubling that those that have posted here that have and do ride/work/show on the A circuit with the BNT’s seem to have such a casual attitude about how the horses are being treated. It doesn’t sound like much fun at all to be at the “top” of this sport, particularly if you’re the horse, and I’m glad I’m not a part of it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think that you are making a gross generalization which I for one do not appreciate. I ride with a BNT who would never give my horse any illegal drugs whatsoever. Firther absent an emergency, he would never give my horse any medication without discussing it with me first. His philosophy is that if the horse can’t be sound, quiet, sane, etc. without a short lounge, turnout, ride, stallrest, then he is not for me. Life is too short and this sport is too expensive for he or anyone he trains to ride a psycho.
Although better living through chemistry may be the motto of some trainers, I can assure you that it is the vast minority of trainers, BNT or otherwise, who are doing this.
Please don’t lump all of us who ride on the “AA” circuit or with BNTs into a category of people who make our horses junkies or people who don’t care. Such statements are a gross distortion of the real picture.
[This message was edited by clearound on Dec. 26, 2003 at 10:30 AM.]
Because, Dior, their jumping styles are different and they don’t have to be 10+ movers to do “the hack.”
Plus, you have to remember that we are talking about AMATEUR eq horses.
No one is saying that the amateur eq horse isn’t/doesn’t have to be/can’t be/whatever talented, scopey, adjustable and all the rest of it that goes into being a good eq horse. What we ARE saying is that they don’t have to have (and should not have) the back-cracking jump of a top hunter.
Although what this has to do with the suspension list, I dunno. 
***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****
The vast majority of people showing today are NOT making a living out of it. What are the largest divisions? The 3’s. No rider or owner makes any money doing the 3’s, so why is there so much pressure to use drugs to win the class?
And horses are NOT investments!! When is the last time your financial advisor recommended you invest in a show horse??? Just because you spent a lot of money on a horse and hope to one day get that money back does not make the horse an investment. And if you can’t afford to lose that money, put it in a savings account or something.
Or, maybe, like some folks speculate, finding reserpine in this day and age means it probably was an accident, since nobody who has been around for long could be that stupid to risk it.
An interesting conundrum.
Thanks for the rundown, kinsella. It takes awhile for my copy to reach here too.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog:
Well Nikki, we COULD ALMOST be twins, after all, I am a WHOPPING 3 days older than you! 
Here are the Devilpups!!
http://community.webshots.com/user/angelgregory87
I un-clog my nose at you, you brightly coloured, mealy-templed, cranberry-smelling, electric donkey-bottom biter!’
TTTTTTTTTHHHHHHHHBBBBBBB!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Wonder twin powers activate! Form of a rabbit with very long nasty teetha… 
LOOK!!!
http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/
Look up your TB’s bloodlines
[This message was edited by Nikkibaby27 on Nov. 06, 2003 at 04:35 PM.]
And these people are TRUSTING their horses’ care to people on cocaine?
I am sorry, but if you spend tons of money on your horse, on showing it and on everything else, why in the world would you trust a drug addict with your horses care?
Is this why some grooms expect tip money? Do they do cocaine because they have to work such long hours? Notice I said SOME not ALL grooms… .
Devilpups
But I can handle the perile!
No you can’t, it’s too perilous!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandstone:
But there were some trainers who were recently led to believe something would not test when it actually would. I don’t think that means they did anything wrong. Of course they should have been more aware of what was in it. That is their bad but I don’t think that makes them cheaters.
Marion
Amalia<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lemme get this straight. They are “innocent” because they were led to believe that the cocktail they were using to alter the behavior of the horses under their care wasn’t going to be detected by currently available methods?
Please. That’s like saying it’s ok to steal money if you can guarantee you won’t get caught at it.
Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.
I heard what I believe to be a doozie today. One of the BNTs who is yet to be listed as suspended is telling people he was suspended for giving a mare depo prevera!!! I dropped an e-mail to the D&M committee and was told that depo is permitted under the therapeutic substances rule. Very intersting. Guess he thinks he can save some face with people if they believe it was for depo and not reserpine (or whatever forbidden substance it turns out to be). Just thought that was interesting.
Dana
Friends don’t let friends ride junk!
I agree with the person that said a proper lay over facility should have been found for Oh Star. Doesn’t Todd have a home stable? Does he not trust that stable manager with his horse? Why put that unnecessary stress on the animal to cart him around all over the place? He should not have been there.
Courtney
Just a couple of random points to add to the discussion:
In all my years of grooming at the top levels, hundreds of clients horses, on both coasts and MN, other than ONE family that I worked for, I cannot remember ONE customer hanging around the barn, asking me questions about their horses, what they were fed, how they were prepared for the ring, etc. NOT ONE. And I consider that I groomed for some of the best customers one could have. It just isn’t what they think about. They put their faith in the trainer and feel they have done their part. I refuse to fault them for that! Would I do it that way? Probably not, not now. But I might have 25 years ago! And what of the customers just getting into the business? There is definitely a learning curve, and new riders/owners may not have a clue!
It doesn’t take “weeks on the road” to make a horse fresh standing in his stall. Some are always fresh, some get that way after being confined for a day or two. The problem is in what the judges are rewarding, and punishing!
To go overboard on the “accused” before the list is even published is pretty scary. Speculation and innuendo are a slippery slope to go down.
Good points, Godiva Girl and your mom!
Consider this: It is my experience that a trainer doesn’t give a horse “something” all the while thinking “I’m going to cheat the hell out of this class!!” What they are usually thinking is this horse needs the edge taken off of him for his A/A client, this horse is stinging from the hard ground, whatever, all the while knowing that every barn in the tent is dealing with the same issues, probably in the same way.
Laurie
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
You can’t have both banamine and bute in the system - it would appear as 2 NSAIDS (illegal except when ketaprofin is the 2nd NSAID).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You are permitted to give two NSAIDS, as long as they are not bute and banamine. You may give either bute or banamine, and add either ketofen (ketaprofin) or arquel (meclofenamic acid) or naproxin. That information can be found both in the rule book and in the drugs and medications download from USEF. The download suggests a seven day window between bute and banamine, but I agree it’s better to be safe than sorry.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For h/j shows you can give 2 grams every 24 hours, but no sooner than 12 hours from competition, or you can give 1 gram every 12 hours. In either event, you cannot give it for more than 5 consecutive days (based on a 1000 lb animal). No D&M report needs to be filed. Also, if you use powder bute, and you have a horse awfully darn close to 1000 pounds, make darn sure you “fluff” up the powder before measuring - it tends to settle, and you might give more than the recommended dosage. (This explains why I still use good old tablets for horse shows!)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
To be more clear, the guidelines from USEF read as follows:For a 1000 pound animal, the maximum daily dose is 2.0 grams, which
equals two 1.0 gram tablets, or two 1.0 gram units of paste, or 10.0 cc of the injectable (200 milligrams per milliliter). Neither a total daily dose nor part of an injectable dose should be administered during the 12 hours
prior to competing. In the event the phenylbutazone is administered orally, half of the maximum daily dose(1.0 grams per 1000 lbs.) can be administered each 12 hours during a five day treatment program. I use the paste, because I find it easier to deal with than grinding pills or giving shots.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted Jan. 02, 2004 02:22 PM
Interesting.
The five day thing is interesting. So a horse who takes Bute as a “maintenance” drug would need to stick a window in every five days?. . . . <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No horses that I’ve ever been around have ever received medication except on nights immediately proceeding a show day. Horses show at most four days at a show (two divisions, which of course not all of them do), so at most are getting four days of bute, with a day off in between and two days off before starting again, presuming they’re showing the following week.
