THE suspension list

[Lord_Helpus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:
Lord Helpus? Was there an answer to the quiz? What was it??

(Did I win? Do I get a prize? )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sad to say, I don’t know! The BNT whose horses were crashing was not in a mood to answer my questions. I was hoping that someone here might know. But on reflection, if anyone does, they might not be so quick to admit it… Even if it meant not winning my contest.

In one of the Fluphenozine threads, side effects were mentioned that sounded like they might cause such behavoir (or lack thereof)… But I have no idea why three horses from one barn crashed in the same manner on one day (or why the barn’s regular rider was not available to ride that day…) All I know is that it happened.

[system]

Sorry, totally off topic and completely out of the loop, but C Boylen is Rox Dene yours? Sorry to be so ignorant, but I find it hard to closely follow the US show circuits from my Canadian perch! I visited your webshots and loved seeing the photos of that awesome mare and your other beautiful hunters. I also remember seeing some photos of her and Rox Don in a PH years and years back, such a beautiful family of horses!

Back on topic…I can’t believe someone on this bb would have the nerve and ignorance to imply that the performance of legendary hunters such as Rox Dene should be questioned now due to this ‘new’ realization of drugs in the h/j world. Honey, drugging horses is about as new as sliced bread - not that I’m saying it is right - but shall we just wipe out the whole history of show hunters because they may have been drugged to enhance their performance? Didn’t think so … If this drugging of horses is something new to you then you must have just joined us in the real world.

It is easier to blame your own failures on someone else’s imaginary ‘advantages’ than to face the truth that perhaps you are just not good enough or not working hard enough to win.

[radio_talk_Aefvue_Fa]

As lauriep mentioned, no one has been able to legislate morality. Even in all the time our organization has been in existance. Till we can somehow break this cycle, bigger fines, longer suspensions etc, it will be business as usual. This has been going on for a long time. Its escalated, more than we thought. Now, we see people who some of us respected, falling. Will this stop them? Or even make them rethink their methods?

[DMK]

cbv, actually I think the reason they don’t test winners is that that very good proposal was shot down in committee at least once if not more often. It is with no surprise that we note trainers dominate committees…

But while I think a little random testing is always a good thing and should be part of any program, quite frankly I am less concerned about the drugged animal that doesn’t jog as opposed to the one that wins. If you are drugging well enough to win, then you should be the primary focus. And let’s face it, that is the philosophy of many major sports (olympics, racing, etc.)

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan

[sesroh]

Mir1204 is right. A horse will be suspended if it is owned by a suspended person. If ownership changed, the horse would no longer be suspended. Basically they don’t want a suspended person to be able to send one of their horses to a show and be shown by a non-suspended person.

You can also get on the suspended list by burning down barns (arson), killing horses for insurance money (fraud), poling at horse shows (yes, people have done this recently–if you can believe that)…

[Black_Market_Radio]

Flash, EXACTLY my point. Jep, no one would say you did the wrong thing. Now, if you were SHOWING this horse you described, that would be a whole 'nother story!

Devilpups
We are now the Knights Who Say ‘Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv’

[Bumpkin]

I think all Hunter Divisions should offer Handy Hunters.

JMHO of Course

“Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies, Mini Horse, Sunnieflax and Horse Boxes Cliques”
“Remember: You’re A Customer In A Service Industry.”

[horsepop]

Tackpud- check page 29 there are two more rule breakers listed. Progess is slow in the horse show business so be patient and maybe USEA will post some more tomorrow.
regarding horses misteriously getting the wrong feed, I can see that but I would bet most of the drugs given for showing purposes are injectable.

[J_Turner]

Sometimes it’s better choice to be an honest, talented NNT than a BNT. I respect the trainers who decide to take the high road. And, just because you are a nobody, doesn’t mean you aren’t a respectable horseperson. I mean, if you can’t trust an Olympian (alternate), who the hell can you trust? You might as well go with an honest NNT.

My Photo Albums

“When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes.”
– Shakespeare, Henry V

[MsHunter]

Well said Chanda. There are a few of us out here also that are trying our darndest as American breeders to PRODUCE this type of horse and figure out the secret. I think I produced ONE so far, there will be a feature on him on the IHF website shortly. As long as we are as a society going to continue to be in a hurry and not have enough time in our lives, there is always going to be a quick fix whether it be cocktails, lunge lines, long rides or whatever the “fix” is.

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

[DMK]

Just as an FYI, items 3 and 4 have been discussed maaaany times before, so if you haven’t seen anyone on this board offer concrete solutions, you must not have been looking very hard.

But I have to admit #2 has some appeal. Except for the fact that IF a horse is found to be positive for a substance in class A, then the owner must return the prize money and it is redistributed to the other placings, so it would be tough to show monetary damages. But what the heck, if you have the bucks to try and prove emotional damages from not being first in that victory gallop and you won your case, that might do more to fix illegal use of substances than anything else.

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan

[KMZ]

I have the nextel also, the only problem is/was that if the signal for the phone was not there neither was the walkie talkie feature, can’t tell you how many times our phones were absolutely worthless, and we even extended our plan to the coast to coast one, still no phone usage 1/3 of the time at horse shows.

[DarkerHorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver Bells:
Ms Hunter, I can assure you that I tell it like it is, except when it could be hurtful.
I have been riding and showing for over 30 years, and have always been hands on. I am a very demanding client. I want to know why my horse gets a certain medication, why my horse is not moving as good as he can, why do we use this blacksmith or vet etc…
I also think that we as customers, should be able to discuss anything we choose amongst each other. Whether we compare our bills, or prices paid for horses, it shouldn’t matter.
This is an expensive hobby, not to be taken for granted. Remember we as clients are the customer!
Personally, If my horse was drugged without my knowledge, and I was put in the position the owners involved in the current suspensions are in, I would litigate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I seriously doubt those owners didn’t know what was going on. At least they most likely had some glimmer of an idea what was going on.

If they didn’t know at all, then that is awful. Usually trainers will bill you for medication.

Ex, at our barn it is 15$ a day that the horse gets medicated. This includes injection of the medication, insurance that the trainer has for injecting horses with drugs, etc. (We do injectable bute, not oral).

The fee onlyincludes bute or banamine. The 15$ also includes azium, if the trainer and the owner decide the horse needs a bit of azium. We do 8cc of dex max per week, and for not more than two weeks in a row. Most other people give 5cc a day, which I feel is dangerous… But that is the dose AHSA allows now. Most of ours don’t even get that though because the only ones that need it are the ancient ones that may be a bit stiff on bad footing or when it gets cold.

If they get something else like robaxin or arquel, it is more money. The owner ALWAYS knows what the horse is getting. If the horse dropped dead from a reaction to a medicaion (you know, rare side effects, but always within the relm of possibility) I would think the trainer would want the owner knowing what it was being given.

We don’t do illegial drugs that are meant to tranquilize. But I was thinking, wouldn’t it be awful for the trainer to have to call the client and say that they killed their horse because they were giving it magnesium or calcium? Gosh, since I have heard it is so easy to ‘drop’ a horse from Mg or Ca, I assume most smart trainers would rather lose a client who insisted that they administer the medicatin the than take the risk of killing some expensive horse. (And they are all expensive, you know… Be it 5K or 500K, neither one is cheap).

You know what guys? I don’t care about the cheating aspect so much as the fact that it is so easy to kill a horse with the illegial drugs mentioned.

I think calcium and magnesium are the really bad drugs that need to be controlled. From what I hear EVERYONE uses it. I’m glad that we don’t use illegial drugs at my barn, because it seems so dangerous to the poor horses… A cc of ace seems more humane, as C.Boylen and other people who show a ton and know a lot of stuff pointed out.

Why D’ya Do It?

[Magnolia]

Dogchusu -
It is good to hear so many concerned people, but lately a lightbulb has been going off in my head. I remember unsound horses, behavior problems etc. etc. from my junior years - I just figured it was normal.

Since college, I’ve been riding with eventers / foxhunters - (just by chance, not by choice). I’m amazed by the soundness and normalness of their horses. I remember a top event horse (Rolex winner), who got turned out with everyone else and just seemed to be allowed a far more normal life in off season than a lesser hunter. In their world, it’s all about the horse - if he can’t compete or hunt, oh well - there is disappointment but no “chemical cocktails” because they don’t want to miss a hunt or forfeit entry fees (at least among those I know). In my junior years, horses got chemical help to get through the season. I doubt mine was any exception.

I feel like hunters are becoming more like quarter horses - a very specific ideal reigns and horses are unnaturally pushed to that ideal. It is even more depressing because I would hope that the cream of the crop could get along naturally - I understand (not condone) drugging an imperfect horse to compete), but why would a top trainer, with a big budget and a great eye for horses need to resort to such behavior, unless an unattainable ideal had been set?

A friend recently gave me an issue of QH Journal - frankly, the halter horses looked like caricatures due to all the inbreeding and “pumping up” - I’d hate to see hunters in a rush to create the deadest horse in the ring like the QH halter people have rushed to create a cow on legs.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

[Hopeful_Hunter]

Uh, I have to reply to this one:

:"Some trainers become very defensive when even the most innocent of questions is asked about their horse’s care… and show bills are often not itemized. The fact is that you can never really be sure what’s being done to prepare your horse for the showring, for a lesson at home, etc. So I don’t think holding the owner responsible is fair. Some trainers won’t even let the clients/owners discuss their horse’s care/soundness issues with the vet either. Some vets don’t feel that owners are “educated”
enough to bother with… "

If this is the attitude you are getting from your trainer I have to say that you are probably amazingly naive if you are surprised to discover your horse may be drugged or lunged to death or whatever as part of the prep. Owners OWN the animal in question – it is their money at the very least at risk, if not their emotional involvement (and it usually is that too) and their own necks!

I can understand that to afford to do the major A circuit shows riders may need to work more and spend less time “hanging around” the barn or involved in routine care of their horse. But that does not in any way in my eyes “excuse” them from being responsible for that day to day care!!! Yes, owners can research up the wazoo and still get burned – especially since the horse world seems to thrive on “we all know but won’t say” type of stuff. But that should be the exception.

Owners – You are the customer here! You have not just a right but a moral obligation since another life is involved to shop around until you find a trainer whose methods and attitude are the right fit. If the type of attitude quoted above is tolerated then we cannot help but continue having this same 25-page thread this year, and next year and for years to come.

[hunt_jump]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by iLoVeLoUeY:
I didnt really feel like looking through 30+ pages of this so Ill just ask it out front. Is there a recent Suspension list??<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is the link

Suspension List

~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump

[flshgordon]

sounds like you had a terrible experience Batgirl!! I don’t know what I would do in your situation if I had seen something like that. Would certainly make me leery of getting back into it!

But…why does riding/showing hunters mean you have to give up control of your partner to someone else?? I am in complete control of my horses at all times even though I have a trainer. I know what they eat, I’m responsible for the farrier, vet and medicines/wound care. Even at shows, I choose to feed my own horses when I can, etc. My trainer doesn’t school my horse for me either. It’s all up to me with her help. Of course my reasoning is that if I want to get the showing in on the budget I have (with 3 horses) I have to do a lot of the work myself–makes it just that much more rewarding. I don’t see anything wrong with this at all. Might be an option for you

“Half the failures in life arise from pulling in one’s horse as he is leaping”

[Portia]

“I thought it wouldn’t test” is not an excuse for cheating, it’s only an explanation for getting caught.

There’s a very good reason Drs. Lengel and Allen, and the rest of the D&M Committee and staff, don’t publicize all the developments in testing techniques and capabilities.

[dogchushu]

It seems to me that Weatherford’s suggested system could change the “philosophy” (for lack of a better word) of how hunters are pinned.

Right now, you can have 7 beautiful jumps, great changes, nice pace, good movement, etc.–but you won’t pin if you pull the giant chip at the 8th fence (unless the rest of the class was really small and also had at least one poor fence). With Weatherford’s system, you could conceivably make up for one bad fence by excelling in the rest of your round (depending on the math).

I’m not sure if that’s good or bad (hey, I’ve always wanted to take the best 7 of 8 fences!), but it is different.

Also, I realize that Weatherford’s formula mostly illustrative and the details would need working out, but you’d need to add in penalties for things like stops and rails. I would imagine in a hunter course those types of things should count against you more than just getting a zero for that fence.

“Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work.” – Thomas A. Edison

[Silk]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

I’m not talking about the big eq, I’m talking about amateur medals and eq classes. Hugely popular on the West Coast, fun, variable courses, and they actually judge the rider. You know, like a s.p.o.r.t.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then yes, I wholeheartedly agree with you! My mistake for assuming you meant the big finals (nationals)

You are 100% correct. I wish the hunters were a little more level. I ride my modified adult hunter (pony) against some pretty fancy imports in the 2’6" division, for god’s ske. I mean, 2’6" for an adult on a medium pony is a real fence; for a 17 hand import who is also doing the first years…??? Sometimes I just feel “outhorsed” even if I am not outridden!

>>It’s not bragging if you can back it up!<<