THE suspension list

[Lord_Helpus]

Apropos of nothing more than a lot of people on this thread are drug savvy…

NAME THIS DRUG: At one show the barn’s rider was somehow incapacitated and so the BNT got another very nice rider to ride the barn’s green and open horses.

After 3 horses failed to take off at a jump (they never lifted their front legs at all – just tried to canter straight through the jump) and said catchrider took his third rather scary tumble of the day, he had a rather loud discussion with said BNT where people could overhear (we didn’t even need to put glasses against the wall ). Bottom line was that he respectfully and regretfully found he was unable to continue on as the catchrider for the BNT… (or words to that effect, but I prefer my paraphrase…)

OK — it seemed very clear to all of us at the time that these horses were on something that blocked signals from the brain from getting through to the legs. And it was truly scary to see it happen several times.

What drug (or class of drugs) would have this effect?

Part II for extra credit: Where was the barn’s rider the day all this was going on? Do you suppose that he/she had an inkling that these horses were not safe to ride?

PS: There is nothing you or I can do if we see this happen (we were told). The testers were not on the grounds, and management has no authority to have the show vet take blood… Even if the testers had been on the grounds, they would not sit up at the ring long enough to notice three crashes over the length of a day. And so they would not have caught it either.

One exhibitor cannot “tattle” on others— the testers will not test a horse on someone’s hearsay or recommendation (I can understand this because then the problem of one competitor drugging the horse(s) of another and then asking the testers to test those horses would be a real one.)

It is hard to watch something like this happen and not be able to do anything about it. But that is the way the rules are written…

[WIndward_1998]

We received the November Issue of the Horse Show Mag yesterday and three was nothing about the suspensions in it. Only ones for non payment.

Two minutes to Glory, hoping the judge isn’t blind.

[jvanrens]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by austinpony:

And, if an old lady can win $87 million from McDonalds over a hot cup of coffee, I say I can sue one of the BNT’s for enough money to make their lives a misery. And, I can find a lawyer to take the case pro bono or for a %. Once case law is established, any trainer who drugs a horse and gets caught can be financial toast. The USEF cannot and never will establish sufficient fines to deter drug use - it’s a “volunteer driven” organization and those volunteers will never let it happen.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Austinpony, the lawyer who got that money out of McD’s for the spilt coffee is a horseman (cutting horses if I recall correctly). Maybe you could contact him? He just might go for it!

Jo

Some days are a total waste of makeup.

[Palisades]

Weatherford’s system still fits the scenario I gave. You can give a coefficient of two for manners, but that still means that manners is only worth 20 out of the 150 marks she detailed. So you’re left with one of two scenarios- either you weigh manners so heavily (as in Children’s classes) that everyone continues to lunge their horse into the ground, or you award so little weight to manners (as in the Open classes) that horses who have behaviour issues are penalized no more than those who are average movers.

The whole point of this sport is to look at overall impression- so that a judge watching a brilliant trip by an average moving horse won’t be forced to pin him below a horse with a deep distance who would win the hack. You can come up with criteria to help the judge, but I think strangling them with marking individual movements (which is NOT what hunters are about, unlike dressage) will only cause more skewed results.

I agree that the slightly fresh horse should pin above the one who is a robot- if and only if he performs better. The point is that something has to separate the top horses, and if they all move great and all jump great and all find their distances, then behaviour is going to come into play. Frankly, I think that’s only fair. Even in a open class, the horse that bucks in one corner and has a late change behind (as in Weatherford’s example) should be placed below a horse that clocks around with a consistent rhythm and a nice jump. The problem with changing judging standards is that we DO value a consistent ride and a horse that behaves, and changing that because you happen to be able to accomplish it with drugging or lunging accomplishes nothing. Do we change the value we place on a brilliant jump because some people can use tack rails to cheat? Judging standards should reward what we want to see in the ring, not what we want to prevent in the barns.

There is a point when a horse is so drugged or so tired that he shouldn’t pin above the horse who plays- but at that point, his pace would be so sluggish or his jump so sloppy that he wouldn’t pin anyway. I don’t have a problem with the performance of top hunters, I have a problem with what some people to do accomplish that ideal.

[The_Muffin_Man]

LMAO…good one!!!

[cbv]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Reserpine [is]a … long-acting, messy psychotropic drug. JMHO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I apologize for messing with your quote, but there is a pill form of reserpine that can be administered for a short-term effect, e.g. 12 hours.

[This message was edited by cbv on Jan. 17, 2004 at 06:29 PM.]

[Jumphigh83]

as a corticosteroid user (myself NOT my horses) with an autoimmune issue let me assure you that they DO NOT make you “quiet”. It can feel very aggitating and can prevent normal sleep, let alone the PU/PD (urinating/drinking) Yes they are powerful anti inflamitories but there is no sedative effect…in fact I feel like I can leap tall buildings in a single bound when on high doses of steriod…so hunter people that are using it to calm their horses might want to consider that it may not be having the desired effect and very dangerous potential side effects. I personally think it is a highly over rated drug of choice (for show horses) and as for the high medical bills from “trainers” Dex is DIRT cheap as are most cortico steroids…

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com

Lead, follow, or get out of the way…

[WIndward_1998]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KJoy:
For heavens sake, why is this an argument at all? Those who drugged their horses are WRONG and should be punished! Period! And yes, let’s be realistic please - most of the people that have been suspended for the few months this winter have violated the drug rule.

I personally don’t really care if it is an accident or not - there are plenty of people out there who haven’t had these so-called “accidents.” If their feeding system is so complicated, well then, fix it! I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the mega-wealthy in this sport who place blame on their oh so complicated feeding systems! Geez, give me a break! Okay, hire an engineer to redesign your feeidng system, if need be. Yes, mistakes can happen occasionally, but we cannot all be so naive as to think this is all just about the occasional mistake, can we? It’s about time for this cr*p to stop.

Can we please stop making excuse after excuse for those who have CLEARLY violated the rules?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well put. They are getting what they deserve. What I don’t understand is the wide range in the punishments.

Two minutes to Glory, hoping the judge isn’t blind.

[Sparky22]

As far as sharp containers go - it is hardly promoting injections. They are going to be done whether you have sharps containers or not. After I give the horses Legend or Adequan or my colicing horse meds I want to throw the needles out somewhere safe!! Besides, I was getting tired of carrying around an old bear-shaped animal cracker container with old Legend and Adequan needles

And of course, you gotta love the ol sharps container trick .

---

I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
– John Keats

[Lord_Helpus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horsepop:
To any of the moderators: What is the most active topic you can remember on the BB before this one came up. Do you have any numbers of viewers and responders?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My guess is the all time thread is the Aiden thread. I cannot imagine a longer thread with more views.

This thread really needs to be split into three:

1. Suspensions – discussion of actual suspensions
2. The problem of drugging and what to do about it.
3. The reasons for drugging (standards required for hunters) and what to do about it.

IMO, this thread has gotten out of hand.

[radio_talk_Aefvue_Fa]

Maybe what some of us are trying to say is that it isn’t black or white. That our society itself has achieved a complete lack of morals.(now that statement alone should fire up someone) Look at all the huge corporations that have succumbed. The pressures put upon everyone, in sports as well as other businesses, is terrific. Yes, it is easy to say no. But if that means you don’t eat your client walks off with your living, you have no place to go what then? The days when trainers owned their properties has passed us by. That’s not the norm any longer.

Was talking to a friend about this whole thing last nite. She reminded me that it was happening when we were kids. The grey cells got joggled, and yes it was. We used to see lovely horses coming, in the dead of winter, quiet, happy loping around to do their courses at shows. Ours, were broncs looking for a place to explode. They didn’t have any better places to ride than we did. But their horses were always quieter. And yes, we did know it…

[DMK]

You know, I had a thought today (always a scary sign)…

Let’s assume someone has been so egregious that this particular character will be set down for life. Hypothetically speaking, let’s assume it is for many infractions. (What can I say? One hears things) I think we can all agree that if one has actually been caught, hypothetically speaking, 5-6 times (as I said, one hears things), then we can’t even count the times they have not been caught. So it’s a Good Thing that they are removed from the equation, so to speak.

The problem comes in with this issue of imposing the penalty to take effect during the next year’s show where the original penalty took place. I think that idea works fine for a normal suspension, but in this case we are talking about someone with not a whole lot left to lose. I mean, hypothetically speaking, if the penalty on such an individual were to occur in late summer then that individual may be out there showing as we speak and can continue showing until late summer. And if this person has shown a propensity to cheat when there was a some capacity to punish the individual, exactly how much worse do we think that person will cheat when there is no possible punishment? I mean the person is already set to be kicked out for life. What are we going to do? Kick him out again???

Hypothetically speaking, that person could feel free enough to hit his horse on the head with the reins in the ring when a judge moved him down a slot in the model. I mean I wouldn’t claim to know about such things, but if he did, what could the USEF really do to him? Kick him out for life? Oops. Too late.

Can we say there might be some hollowness to this threat under these circumstances?

It seems to me that if such a scenario was true (this is all hypothetical, remember?) then as soon as there was a lifetime suspension conviction, then that person is OUT. No waiting for the annual date, and maybe not even waiting through extensive appeals if that is an option. Hey, we let some criminals out on their own recognizance during the appeals process, but we damn sure don’t grant the worst offenders the same rights!

As I said, it is scary when I start thinking…

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan

[SaddleFitterVA]

lms,

Glad you counted. I also noticed that Lindemann and Cellular Farms had an awful lot. Wanna count those too?

Mel

[sss]

I didn’t mean for this to come down to tiny miniscule “what if’s . . . ,” so please understand I was talking in generalities with my last post.

Nonetheless, I have to respectfully disagree for the most part on the dog scenario. In most instances, a horse’s mind should be on his job, not a dog running into the ring. We can split hairs over how close the dog is, whether he’s running for hellfire straight at the horse, etc., and at some point, yes, no one can keep a horse perfectfully calm and cool if Fifi is bowled over under his hooves. But a dog running into a ring under a horse’s feet isn’t what’s being discussed here; it’s the “chips,” “bucking,” “tail swishing,” “head tossing,” etc.

With the “proud of himself” headshake, I’ve gotta go with a lapse in piloting to prevent it, in an ideal world. As someone pointed out, it may depend on the underlying goal of the class: was the horse’s response appropriate to the rider’s abilities? But in all, again, the shaking is something a pro could ideally prevent; maybe not an amateur or junior. It all goes back to the question: should the horse be judged as someone who fills in the gaps for rider error (and I realize not everyone thinks it’s an “error” for a horse to do the “happy headshake” – I’m just using a general word), or someone that’s allowed to “take advantage and be a horse” where “appropriate?” My observation simply was that we expect the horse to fill in the gaps and be perfectly behaved, as an exemplar of either superior riding/training, or at least a horse who’s a saint despite rider/training shortcomings, and someone who won’t accidentally lose his rider during a jump through the hunt field.

Edited to add: I guess the issue is whether a judge should recognize that “playing” won’t be deleterious to the rider, but if safety is an utmost concern, I can understand valuing the “non-sparky” horse over the “less reliable” one, on principle.

[CBoylen]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:

FEI is zero tolerance. Hay, oats, water.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Plus Legend and Adequan. Just thought I’d mention that before people start accosting individuals seen bearing a syringe at an FEI event

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

[mwalshe]

There is a thread over on the Breeding Forum about hunter stallions and links to bunches of videos of stallions and offspring (if you keep following them). I have to say that they are the Most Boring Thing Ever. Seriously watching those (very very nice) horses go around, dum dum dum dum ~pause~ jump, dum dum dum dum ~pause~ jump is mind numbing. One that looks interested in what it’s doing and fresh would be so much more engaging to watch and fun to ride IMHO. The riders have the spurs buried half the time.

I haven’t been to an A hunter show in years but if that is what wins currently then I can see why people are drugging and why the “naturals” are rare. It ain’t natural, and IMHO it ain’t even attractive and I’m sure it is very hard ot acheive that look with most horses.

I also like Weatehrfords idea of a point system. The General Impresison category gives the judge a chance to factor in the “art-not-a-science” thing.

[Midge]

sit up, let’s just say he’s on vacation right now…

[clearound]

Not that I show there, but what effect do the suspensions have with their running/owning the Littlewood shows?

[DarkerHorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SydneyS:
To whomever stated that BNT’s never drive nice cars… In this area we have several BNT’s that drive Mercedes, Jaguars, BMW’s, and Lexus. Do you want me to list who drives what? And alot of them own their own farms (in this area that means $750k or more for a 10 acre facility).

Where do you think this money comes from? Maybe from the bills that list $350 for meds!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Name them. I seriously doubt that unless they have lots of family money. I mean, horse professionals just do not make tons of money. Perhaps you are in some kind of a flukey part of the country where some of the most rich trainers are. I don’t know.

But most horse people i’ve seen like what they are doing and they aren’t going into teaching and riding to make millions.

Why D’ya Do It?

[Gayle]

I don’t know about the prolixin but phenobarbital is a barbiturate. In humans it is used for seizures and sedation and has a big side effect of lethargy and sleepiness. So in a hot horse it would slow them down and/or take the edge off.

“The credit belongs to those people who are actually in the arena…who know the great enthusiasms, the great devotions to a worthy cause; who at best, know the triumph of high achievement; and who, at worst, fail while daring greatly, so that their place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat.” Theodore Roosevelt