THE suspension list

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
While the list is long, it’s fairly easy to identify those caught in this particular net. They are the ones that have two dates after their names, beginning and ending, not just a beginning date. The vast majority of those with only a beginning date are for non-payment of an indebtedness.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not all of the people “caught in this particular net” are being sentenced at this time for the same thing. That is why it’s important to wait for the proper explanation in the magazine. There’s a lot of different senarios being prosecuted here, at least if we can trust gossip that far. I’ve heard issues with reserpine, fluphenazine, overlimits of legal drugs, forbidden theraputic substances, rudeness to officials, horse switching in the jog, or all of the above , and some completely unrelated ‘incidents’. That’s why I’m reluctant to have individuals discussed before the terms of their sentencing are clear. Just because people are being set down at the same time one can’t assume that they’re being set down for exactly the same thing. I, for one, like to make distinctions.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:
but still sometimes we do our best to judge character and we are wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah, look at the divorce rate.

Also, notice ML Baseball cracking down (kind of) on steroid use? Over 5% tested positive. I say let the idiots take whatever they want, just make sure they stay locked away from the general public. And note what drugs they are on in the program.

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
The most interesting Notice this month is probably Allison Hecht’s, for falsifying her birth information and showing younger than she was. I wonder how they caught her and proved it. It is unusual that they also directed that she must return prizes from ALL shows where she falsified her age, forfeit all associated points, and pay each show $50.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was she an ammy showing as a junior?

<<Janet pointed out that it would be hard to reconcile this with the current practice of hunter judges to judge “comparatively”, placing one horse against another as they show. Well, maybe (?) that would be a good thing.>>

I keep pointing out (when this subject arises) that it really doesn’t matter whether judges use a system that compares performances to each other, or compares performances against a standard…the result will be the same. Performances are seldom equal in quality–and so whether a horse is getting XX% out of 100% or whether a horse is somewhat better or worse than the other horses in the class being judged, the result won’t change. The only thing that might change if a numerical comparison against a standard is used is that a performance in one class might be fairly compared to a performance in another class. However, that’s only if one judge’s idea of perfection is identical to another’s.

I like Weatherford’s idea as it was explained this time. Such a system would have to be tested thoroughly before it’s put into use; there are bound to be unanticipated consequences, and it certainly would take some getting used to…technologically, it would not be so simple as merely getting scribes to sit with judges.

One reason such a system works well in the dressage ring is that the rides are scheduled, and the day is tightly scripted. Not the case at a busy multi-ring hunter show, with back to back rides. When horses enter the ring at the rate of 2 min per trip, the trip itself lasts only about a minute or so…an experienced judge evaluates each jumping effort, transcribes what occurs, asseses each trip in comparison to the rest, ranks each trip and is ready to begin the process again–all within that two minute window.

Using a numerical scoring system that requires a communication with the announcer (who may be busy with results at another ring, or announcing these) slows this process a little…(one reason why numerical scoring is presently popular only at larger shows and mostly for “Classics” with a dedicated announcer). Weatherford’s system would require even more communication, and as she points out, more personnel to carry out.

I would not dispute that it might be easy for all to understand, and fair. But the pace of the shows that use it would be affected, and I doubt that the number of entries presently accomodated could be served. These aren’t reasons not to suggest it or not to use it, they are just realities that would have to be taken into consideration.

In the short term, I think JustJump’s list of suggestions might be more practical, particularly the reference to changing the courses, as I stated on the Patty Heukeroth (sp?) letter thread. Right now, only one particular type of horse (quiet, good jumper, big mover) is desireable. Change the courses, and it opens up the possibility that a wider variety of horses could be competitive. That’s not lowering the standards, it’s opening up the standards, and that in itself would diminish the importance of a little headshake or a bit of play. If these are diminished, maybe the incentive to use medications to enhance performance would diminish as well, and selection of horses could be made with more attention to temperament and jumping ability from a larger pool of candidates (mostly quiet, good jumpers, big or not so big movers).

MCL

Okay, this is unconfirmed, but much too rich not to share! I heard that a BNT set to go down for the last time–ie, lifetime suspension and it couldn’t happen to a nicer guy–has negotiated a deal with the powers that be–to wit, in exchange for a lighter “sentence,” he’s offered to rat out his fellow professionals.

Shades of PV, eh? Wonder if he’ll have to wear a wire???

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:

Actually, we see more than I would like (I have a former jumper who loses most of her hunter style after the first roll back) In any case, all sections of juniors at AA (and A?) shows have to have one handy hunter class. The workings rarely have them, but they can be found at Devon and WIHS.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One sharp turn and a trot fence do not make a handy hunter class… They used to involve gates, dropping rails, sometimes even a raincoat. Pens were popular. It was really fun to watch, and even more fun to do.

madeline

Wow, that is amazing! I can’t believe the things people get away with. Did it make her feel better to be competing against people who were younger than her? Good for your thrainer for turning her in, Chrissy!

Devilpups
We are now the Knights Who Say ‘Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv’

They cut straight to the hard stuff, eh Toofs?

Given a choice, I think I would stick with bute!

We have endlessly debated the idea of testing certain winners, and it makes a world of sense (but there are some timing issues that make it less easy than race testing). Quite frankly, if your drugging doesn’t earn you high ribbons, you aren’t doing it particularly well. I would rather the person who beat me be caught than the one behind me. But it has been firmly rejected in the rule process. Not that this has anything to do with the fact that trainers populate the committees. Nope, I’m sure that is just a coinky dink…

Regarding the FEI issue, if it was an FEI sanctioned class, why would the penalty show up at USEF? Shouldn’t it be the FEI’s bailiwick? Early on, someone mentioned the FEI thing, but I assume dressage is like show jumping. Some shows/classes are FEI and soe are not, and since this fine showed up in the USEF side, I figured it must be USEF only. But I honestly don’t know the rules/process in this regard.

Still, I suspect pentox is legal at FEI levles, just has a longer withdrawal time than 24 hours. Or not. Does anyone know?

“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Riggs:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog87:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimoWrek:
Yep, its vacation time… And i’m going to enjoy the time off personally


Limo Wrek.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In case you don’t know what Farfel was reffering to, I believe it would be THIS qoute!

http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87
We are now the Knights Who Say ‘Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv’

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sounds like maybe a troll…hopefully.
I wouldnt want to think that people actually would expect a live being to be an athlete in the afternoon after nearly dying in the a.m. Not entertaining at all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not a troll… And it prob just made the horse more quiet. Quiet is the issue. If you can drug the horses, why not show one that almost died. Get my point? I woudn’t show the horse if it almost died, and you woudn’t show the animal.

But other people would.

I won’t touch something I know is illegial, and as I said I won’t touch magnesium or calcium anymore since it is so harmful to the horses.


Limo Wrek.

I agree that the judging has to change so that hunters that act less like robots and more like athletes are rewarded, but why couldn’t a show limit work? Cap it so that riders could still show whatever circuits they choose, but in a way that the horse would have a mandatory break each year?

And what about longer penalties. A few months? C’mon, that’s just a slap on the wrist. How about a 2-3 year suspension AND the mandatory drug testing and the trainer’s expense in the future?


“Whether you think you can or think you can’t - you are right.” -Henry Ford

Midge- do you mean JUNIOR?

Hmm, I’m a little confused. The Burtons are also on today’s list with 12/1/03-1/31/04 suspensions, but one of their horses (listed with the farm name as owner) is listed as suspended 12/01/03-3/31/04. Now their other horse (listed under Dave) is listed as suspended 12/1/03-1/31/04. Why would one horse be suspended longer than the other horse and longer than the owners?

~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump

Every situation is unique, but when you have whole barns full of “unique” horses who need medication A every 6 months and medication B other week and medications C, D & E 2 days before the show, you gotta wonder how they all ended up in the same barn.

I have been reading this thread and I feel that some might have missed one very important point. There are very special horses out there there can go into the hunter ring and not look half dead and not be drugged or lunged or ridden to death and be successful. This thread takes away the natural and true talent that these very special horses possess. The owners and trainers that drug and lunge and ride their horses too much are trying to obtain this true talent in unnatural ways. It just realy burns me to read all of this as I have a daughter who rides in the hunters and we do not use any of these practices on our horses. We have 2 hunters that go in the ring with very little schooling and one coming pre green that I am pretty confident that will be the same way. If you get the right horse with the right training you don’t need all of the artificial tactics. I am sure there are a lot more people out there with horses like mine that don’t use these illegal means and I hope they speak up also. I hope I am not just too naive to think that I am in the minority.

Denise Higgins www.bluemoonfarms.net
Domestic & Imported Warmbloods

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RzB:
I’m not for raising the drug fee. If people want to drug their horses to win, who cares. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who Cares?

Usually people who care about the moral and ethical aspect of making use of another creatures life.

_\]
– * > hoopoe
The ancient Greeks did not write obituaries. They only wanted to know if you had a passion.

Weatherford - That makes sense. I like your examples, too. They make it easy to see how they play out.

My Photo Albums

“When I bestride him, I soar, I am a hawk: he trots the air; the earth sings when he touches it; the basest horn of his hoof is more musical than the pipe of Hermes.”
– Shakespeare, Henry V

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
I’m at work right now & don’t really have time to address this in detail - but just for openers as to what I would suggest - personally, I’d have no problem if the entire winter circuit ended TOMORROW. I remember back before there was one.
It may not have earned a bunch of trainers a nice paid vacation in Florida, but it was better for the horses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty off subject, but I was wondering… when was there no form of winter circuit? There used to be Winterhaven, then Jacksonville; Venice; some of that is going back 40 years I believe. WEF has been going for at least 20.
Also, what circuit are you attending that you can call it a vacation? I want to go there.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by War Admiral:
I’m at work right now & don’t really have time to address this in detail - but just for openers as to what I would suggest - personally, I’d have no problem if the entire winter circuit ended TOMORROW. I remember back before there was one.
It may not have earned a bunch of trainers a nice paid vacation in Florida, but it was better for the horses.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty off subject, but I was wondering… when was there no form of winter circuit? There used to be Winterhaven, then Jacksonville; Venice; some of that is going back 40 years I believe. WEF has been going for at least 20.
Also, what circuit are you attending that you can call it a vacation? I want to go there.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was wondering the same thing. My family is from Winter Haven and I think the stories I have heard would have that show going on as early as the 1950s?? Didn’t there used to be an old Sunshine circuit or something (I could be wrong on that).

As for the other part of this long discussion I am with Chanda and Laurie on this one. This is an Industry (just as horse racing is an Industry). Being an industry it also effects the economy. If Winter circuits ended tomorrow, trust me not only would it effect the horses, the trainers, the riders, the grooms, the owners, but also the cities which host these circuits.

Who do you think owns all of those Grand Prix horses that the pros ride. Do you think that those are owners that come to the farm daily and check what their horse is eating?

I am what most of you would term an “absentee” owner (and I will admit that I am without shame). I used to be very active with my horses not only riding but helping care for them on the road. I have not been able to ride (except a handful of times) or show in the last several years due to my health. I rarely see my horse anymore and do not know the details of every little thing that goes in his body every single day. I trust my trainer and I keep in touch with her, but I do not expect her to have to call everytime to get my permission to give him something that he needs. I love my horse, but I don’t have the extra time in my day (and I know that my trainer doesn’t either) to keep up with the details of what he is eating or if and what type of meds or supplements he might need on a daily basis nor am I in a position to dictate that. I don’t see the horse daily - my trainer does.

I personally think that the drug rules are there for a purpose, but that the suspensions do very little to change anything. So what is the key to fixing the problem? That I don’t know. I personally don’t believe in banning all meds. I honestly don’t think it would change anything. As long as large amounts of money are involved someone will step a little to far in pushing the legal competitive edge. We are not the only sport with this problem. The only way to change the current state of things as I see it is to alter our judging practices and/or start limiting the number of shows a year which are counted towards points. I’m really not convinced that either of these are good options.

~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump

Trying to put my fairness hat on here, though, Elijah, it is entirely possible to violate the USAE drug rules without knowingly doing so.

Does anyone remember which herbal supplement it was that got a whole bunch of people suspended because, unbeknownst to them, it contained an illegal substance as a byproduct? And what the illegal substance was? I meant to make a note of that at the time, but all my aging brain could manage was to make a “Note to Self” about never trying any supp which does not disclose its ingredients…

…And even chocolate tests positive if fed in sufficient amounts…

Mind you, I don’t think that is the case with the upcoming suspensions. Sigh.


“No horse with cart horse blood inside three crosses can stand an extreme test against horses bred for Epsom Downs and the Metairie Course…”
–Marguerite Bayliss, The Bolinvars

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darker Horse:

Well that’s kind of a personal question.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Absolutely and normally not a question I would ask, but when the exact dosing “formula” is posted on a public forum you have put it out there for discussion.

Of course, you have the right to ignore me. Not trying to start a fight with anyone. I’m surprised that dex has not been moved to the reporting list as it’s use is not always focused on its anti-inflammatory properties.

I am concerned that if we “hunter people” can’t learn to get ourselves together, the Federation is going to take away our right to choose between No Foreign Substances and Therapeutic Provisions. That would be a real shame as there are lots of horses out there whose jobs are made easier with a little help. Help under the rules.

Like anything else in life, there is no way to insure that no one cheats, but there is a way to attack it on a smaller level. Regardless of the testing and amount of money we spend, there will always be someone who tries to get around it. I am fortunate enough to have the courage of conviction to do what is right, both legally and for the good of my horses.

When each of us as individuals are capable of saying NO and sticking with it, even if it means changing trainers, we can as a group be heard. Until then, let’s let the sanctioned parties pay more than a measly share of the budget for future testing. I have no doubt that mistakes can be made, but if I run a red light, I am just as guilty if I claim I did not see it.

Trinity Hill Farm