THE suspension list

[Tackpud]

Weatherford is right on that - a lot of money is squandered away just for “show”. I’ve heard about the BNT who regularly gets his TT “detailed” to the tune of $10K each time.

Darker Horse - and even then you have to be careful - some horses are just lazy. I have two who routinely stand at the ring like that. Lip hanging, penis dangling, head down to their knees. We don’t give them anything - I do the night time meds and I don’t own any illegal drugs. Both are just really lazy! (and that’s why they go to shows to teach my students!)

[Duffy]

Shit - very disappointed to see Bob Crandall has been added to the list, based on the above post.

“B***h in training”

[Janet]

Now i am going to play Del’s Advocate to Weatherford’s judging proposal (even though, personally, I think it is great).

There is a big difference in judging philosophy between dressage-like judging and hunter judging.

Hunter judging is inherently comparative. The judge compares one horse to another, and determines which (s)he prefers. Then, if scoring is involved, chooses a score that reflects that preference. Hunter judges keep track of the scores to date in the class. If they want to squeeze a horse between two existing scores, they go to .5, and so on.

If you went with a (perfectly rational) scoring system like the one proposed by Weatherford, you would find the hunter judges “reverse engineering” - “How do I score horse 123 so that it comes out between horse 140 and horse 87?”

Dressage-type judging, however, is not “comparative” between the horses. The horses are judged individually against the standard, and the placings “fall where they may”.

As scorer at recognized dressage shows, I have had the judge come up at lunch time to find out “who won Class X” that she judged.

I don’t think most hunter judges would be comfortable submitting scores without knowing “who won”.

I found this statement in a thread over on the dressage forum<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> A class should never be judged comparatively, but to the standard, then the scores cannot be manipulated. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I don’t think hunter judges would be happy with that level of abstraction.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[JusJumpIt]

I just love a good debate, and I am old enough to finally keep an open mind, and have been shocked to realize that I am NOT always right. Shame it took all those long years. I just wanted to clear up the “rules” for using NSAIDS. To be legal the second NSAIDS does NOT have to be Ketoprofen, you CAN “stack” any of the NSAIDS EXCEPT Bute and Banamine. For example you can use two of any of the following, Ketoprofen, Melclofenamic Acid AKA Arquel, Naproxen. And you can use EITHER Bute OR BANAMINE with any one of the above list, just can not use Bute and Banamine together. You can also use Salicylic Acid (Aspirin), and Methocarbamol (Robaxin, a muscle relaxer) Dexamethasone (Azium if it is oral, this is the only corticosteroid allowed). Also note that you CAN use 2 legal NSAIDS AND use Salicylic Acid in addition to the 2 allowed. But of course NOT BOTH BUTE AND BANAMINE. WOW because my brain is just full of junk, and there is not room for much more, when in ANY ANY doubt I call 1-800-MED-AHSA, the number is still the same ole AHSA, thank goodness they at least left that the same, that will get you to the USAE’s Drugs and Medications department, and I have found they are most helpful, I call a lot, as I do not want to see my name in the magazine in that evil department (even though it’s the first place I go to when the magazine arrives). They will give you “guidelines” and help you “de-code” the dosages and times, of course they give only guidelines, but they have always been helpful. In addition to the USAE rated shows we also haul a Young Riders horse, and they show under FEI rules. Also if you show Quarter Horses, the 1-800-MED-AHSA will get you the info you need as the Quarter Horse Association uses Dr Lengle’s and the USAE Drugs and Medications department. There are a few minor differences from the rules for Quarter Horses and for USAE Hunters, but at last the AQHA now allows some use of therapeutic substances. Sorry my 2 cents turned into several dollars. The best advice is to check with the Drugs and Meds department, as if things were not confusing enough the rules can change OFTEN. I hope I do not have a ton of mis-spelled words, I haven’t been able to figure out how to use a spell-check here.

[Lost_n_Texas]

This was in the new issue of “Sidelines” it doesnt mention names either, but, well, here it is & the link to the page:
“Keep checking your USAE magazine. There are lots of our favorite people about to get a vacation from horse showing. And, we hear that there are 22 more positive tests, so stay tuned for the ‘who, when and where’. There is even a Florida-based horse show manager and owner that is getting a January vacation … and no, they are NOT connected to Stadium Jumping!”

http://www.sidelinesnews.com/1606/HIngate.html

“Talent is the gift plus the passion-a desire to succeed so intense that no force on earth can stop it.” unknown

“Why is it that a woman will forgive homicidal behavior in a horse,yet be highly critical of a man for leaving the toilet seat up?” Dave Barry

[CBoylen]

Weatherford,
I cannot find any indication that Dex is still a substance requiring a medication form. The levels are still the same for 2004 as far as I can tell (according to the practical advice download, and the 2004 rule book), and I was under the impression that the reporting was merely an information gathering session to establish levels, terminated on the establishment of those levels. All OTHER corticosteriods are now reportable and forbidden substances however. If I am mistaken please show me where I missed it. I don’t use dex personally, but I am familiar with its use.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

[JusJumpIt]

This thread had gotten away from the Suspension list but i just have one teeny, tiny thought to add to the issue or Hunter/Jumper judges providing a score sheet much like those used by the Dressage Judges. putting on bullet-proof vest
The Hunter Judge is there to sort out the placings, NOT to give a lesson. running for cover now

[War_Admiral]

Well - tell ya one thang - aside from the moral questions here, I just started doing a little research into the drug in question and you know what? I would not feel safe buying a horse from ANY of these people, for fear that the horse actually might have been on this stuff long-term (even if the horse tested clean).

I would most certainly not buy one for a client - where MY potential liability if the horse (side effects: “Long term significant neurological damage”) collapses in a seizure in the middle of a course and falls on a kid & kills him/her would be absolutely HUGE… It is simply not worth the risk.

---

“No horse with cart horse blood inside three crosses can stand an extreme test against horses bred for Epsom Downs and the Metairie Course…”
–Marguerite Bayliss, The Bolinvars

[AW]

I know I’m butting in, but there are things you don’t do for money. Before anything else, I know I’m not perfect, well aware of that every time I tell the kid who’s been riding for 10 years to change her diagonal, and the adult not to look for her leads, and every time my horses blow their lead in a flat class. And I’m just as far in debt as anyone else. But if I ever did have the mega bucks client who thought the horse was too hard to ride, I’d tell her to learn to ride it or sell it.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
Most owners are not involved, nor should be involved (due to lack of knowledge) in the medication or preparation of their horse.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Humbug. They bloody well ought to be involved. That’s not the same thing as being in charge of calculating the dosage of a drug being given for a genuine therapeutic purpose.
Same thing goes about being knowledgeable about preparation and turnout. Fine to employ someone to do the work, but a horseman knows what that work entails.

If you own a horse, and you want to be thought of as a horseman, vs. someone who rides, you need to learn about managing the beasts, and you need to learn what type of people you are paying to perform the hands on care of those beasts.

If you show a horse, and you sign off on the entry form as the owner, then you are accepting responsibility for adhering to the rules. That means you need to know what’s going on back at the barn.

I have little sympathy for the willfully ignorant in this area, as it is the horse that suffers for their ignorance.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.

[sesroh]

Ash:
Don’t worry–no hard feelings. My horse is slow and lopey. I like him that way. Honestly, I am not on the road showing all the time. Most of my riding time is spent at home, enjoying my horses. I just don’t like to go fast so I prefer the lopier ones–regardless of what is preferred in the show ring.

[Black_Market_Radio]

Thanks LH! Now I remember… You saw horses crashing through fences… I am coming down with bronchitis so I am a bit at the moment… But yes, I would consider Midge a reliable source, too!

LW, Why did you make that comment “I’m going to enjoy my vacation…” especially on a thread about people being suspended? Sounds like you were banned for something…

Devilpups
We are now the Knights Who Say ‘Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv’

[clearound]

Thanks SILVERBELLS!

[Madeline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog87:
Flash, EXACTLY my point. Jep, no one would say you did the wrong thing. Now, if you were SHOWING this horse you described, that would be a whole 'nother story!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
from JEP “—i am very happy to say that with the right shoes, turn-out, the occasional bute and injection, we’ve been able to show the hi-aa and low a/o jumpers all year. though he’ll prob never be more than a 4’ horse now, just having him sound at all is a blessing i’m thankful for everyday.”

She IS showing this horse, but only at the 4’ level…

madeline

[Madeline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ash:
sesroh- I see what you are saying but the class is called hunters. Why should brilliance be penalized? Look at the show hunters from the 60’s and 70’s. They are NOTHING like the show hunters of today. They were much more like a horse you would see in the hunt field (as many of them did both). There is an EXAGERATED difference between a show hunter of today and a real hunter. Like Ghazzu said, the standard has already been changed. Maybe it is time to start changing it back. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree that the standard has changed, but not in the some of the ways you suggest. We showed our field hunters at Devon and the indoors. But getting them ready involved keeping them in the barn more so they would show some spark! It used to be that the hunters were supposed to make what they were doing look easy. The top of the heap, except for the Team horses, were the working and conformation hunters. Who really did jump 4’6" out of their in-and -outs in stake and Corinthian classes.

Somehow “perfect huter form” has become corrupted into radical knee snatching, with riders sprawled out on their horses’ necks as if they were jumping 5’. (Except that the good jumper riders don’t really do that either.)

This is probably as a result of two different trends:First, the proliferation of 2’6" and 3’ classes for hunters. These create a permanent home for those horses who cannot actually get up in the air easily, and I’m sure that the judges, trainers and riders have all gotten accustomed to this “look”. As I see it, the “perfect hunter look” is now that of a horse struggling to get into the air, and a rider trying to look as if the horse has so much jump that he/she can hardly stay with him.

The second contributing factor to this transmogrification is the proliferation of lower level jumper classes. Until the early '60’s there was just one division of jumpers: Open. Sure, there was an occasional junior jumper class, but never a whole division. There were green jumpers for a few years, but now there are Opens, intermediates, prelims high and low, jr./ams high and low, schooling, training, childrens & adults high and low, hopefuls. There are probably more that I’ve forgotten.

The whole concept of instant gratification and objective scoring make these divisions very attractive to those with horses who can get in the air easily, and for whom accomplishing the task is more valued than form. So those horses who would have normally floated around hunter rings like it was nothin’, are now in the jumper rings where politics is not a player, and neither is waiting around to see whether the judge ( who may or may not have sold your trainer 6 big$ horses) likes the way your horse went.

The talented horses who would have made up the ranks of the working hunters are now in the junior/amateur jumpers.

Whose fault is that? I don’t know, but I’m also not sure that it’s a bad thing for riding and showing in the US.

madeline

[lauriep]

Tiramit, it isn’t a BAD idea, just not practical! Who, pray tell, would enforce the rule? How long a break? After how many shows? What if you are THIS CLOSE to qualifying for indoors, but need one more good show to get there? But your horse is on a mandatory break, even though he is fat, shiny and sound, so you can’t show? You’ve heard the old saying, you can’t legislate morality. Well you also can’t legislate good sense. Would you want to be told when you can show your horse and when you can’t? Not all horses suffer from this schedule, some even thrive on it. So would it be fair to limit their showing? And, while that MIGHT help soundness issues, it isn’t going to address the problem with horses being quiet enough in the ring.

The industry has enough trouble enforcing the rules they currently have. The problem needs to be addressed in other ways, IMO.

Laurie

[CBoylen]

They are GUIDELINES (I just thought I should make that part clear first) and are available from USEF, if you go to usef.org, then click on “drugs and medications” from the menu, and then download the “practical advice for 2004”. You have to have acrobat reader, as it is in pdf.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

[dab]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> which TREATS test? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I e-maile USEF to ask about BOSS – They said they are o.k. because they are feed –

[MsHunter]

WHISKEY POPPA I can’t even understand that. My veterinarian would NEVER give me an unmarked bottle of anything, let alone not have the horses name, the dosage and length of time to administer. I’d never give an animal some unknown substance. What owner would want their horse getting god knows what? I think this has to be the exception rather than the norm.

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

[Jake_s_Dad]

just a thought … most of the horses are given somthing 72 hrs befor a show for training …what happened the vet said it will be out of there system befor the show …ok said bnt …and it dident get out of there system…even 5 days befor the show …they wernt shoting up horses at the show…they dont have to …how about when a vet gives a horse a shot and says it will be in his system 10 days and was picked up at a show 60 days after …and you are suspended…many of you dont have a clue and neither do i…