THE suspension list

[Beezer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coreene:
Tell me, Schatzi, you mean it’s twue that Germans used steriods on their athletes? Oh, yes, the old East German team, jawol, I remember now. Man, they were machines.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha. Remember the women’s swimmers? lordy… they were tanks!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ain’t that the truth … and as a linebred German tank myself, I can say that! I can still hear my father yelling, “THAT’S NO GIRL!!”

***** I muck, therefore I am. *****

[EventerAJ]

No 2-way radios at events is VERY important though, because radios are how the various officials/organizer/sec’y and the many jump judges communicate. To impede on their channels would be horrific. Of course cell phones are allowed, but it is noted that their use may be restricted (as in the “remote coaching” sense, I presume).

~AJ~
If you’re big-star bound let me warn ya it’s a long hard ride.

[Madeline]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellsboro Jack:
Can anyone explain the logic as to why a horse can be banned from recognized shows? <snip>

A show jumper of grand prix capabilities now becomes what? A mere lesson horse, lawn ornament, polo pony … or plow horse?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

“For Sale”

madeline

[Jumphigh83]

Mostly fear! Money talks and everyone else walks! And if you start to gripe YOU become the trouble maker NOT the real trouble makers! And the complaints about the cost of the convention…?? EVERYTHING went up at HITS this year…alot…pretty soon only the very wealthy will be ‘playing’ this sport…It is discouraging and disgusting after all how much money is enough money to make putting on a horse show…(retorical question…I know!)

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com

Lead, follow, or get out of the way…

[DarkerHorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
As I have posted, I personally know two horses that have foundered to the point of being put down from abuse of Dex - both before the rules were put in place. I also know a nice one that had been sold as a five yr old (after winning a LOT in FL) homebred, but flunked on rotated coffin bones (aka founder)… The owner (whom I knew) NEVER gave the horse meds… HOWEVER, horse spent Florida under the care of a professional who definitely gave EVERY show horse their cocktail before showing… (a friend working for an owner saw this personally, and her owner had NO CLUE it was happening.) All of these examples DID happen before the rule change, so maybe that has been a help…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But see you still don’t know for a fact that the horse got dex or that the dex caused the minor rotation of the coffin bone. People take what you say here as fact because you make very good posts. This isn’t a fact.

My vet said that even if you are giving a horse 10cc of dex per day most horses will not founder. You will founder some doing this, but 80-90% won’t founder. He said that 10-20% is a lot, so you don’t want to play with fire with client’s horses, but if you feel your older horse is a bit sore an extra 3cc on the saturday before a big sunday class is fine to administer to your own horse because the chances of them foundering are almost none. He said you won’t founder a big horse with the 8cc per week for 2 weeks max.

And being fit won’t help arthritis or just being old. I know myself that just being fit doesn’t make me feel pain free like I was when I was 5. My mother can’t be super fit and work out for 3 hours a day and feel like she did when she was my age. They do just get wear and tear as they get older.

Sure the horse is serviceably sound without medication. He is much more happy with medication. It doesn’t really make a difference in his placings at a show- he just does the adult jumper and/or fills the working hunter or the a/o hunter when they don’t fill. It isn’t like he is some fancy hack winning hunter. I medicate him at horse shows because he has to jump more jumps than normal and he is more happy medicated than not.

I don’t mean to be debating if medicatin is ethical for the horses or not though, sorry.

Why D’ya Do It?

[hunt_jump]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wondrlnd77:
Darren Frazier added now too ?!

Just a clarification on the Burtons,it says only the olders are suspended, not the youngers. They will probably just change all the Farms shows to Fences.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you check the dates on the Frasiers I think they have been suspended since 2001. Good point about the Littlewood shows. I still am curious why one of the horses would have a longer suspension than the other one or the owner.

~ hunt_jump ~
http://home.cfl.rr.com/huntjump

[radio_talk_Aefvue_Fa]

JustJump, I agree with all 4 of your points whole heartedly! Now, try to get the proverbial “establishment” to agree with them… We need more of the B and C shows to come back into their own. AA or A shows are, as you pointed out, long and take most of us away from work more than our bosses would like. Let alone what it does to our horses.

Both you and LH are on the right path…

[DarkerHorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by arnika:
ClemsonGraduateRider,

I think you guys are missing the point here.

Besides the fact that it’s bad for the horses, these trainers are CHEATING. IT’S ILLEGAL.

(Deleted by me as upon re-reading it, I feel it WAS too harshly worded. I may not agree with certain opinions but I don’t want to start a personal battle.)

It breaks my heart.

[This message was edited by arnika on Nov. 05, 2003 at 07:38 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CHICKEN. say what you think… You thought it, you must feel it. Don’t change what you say.

[Janet]

Under the FEI rules (I have read the eventing ones, but I assume they are similar to the jumper ones)

-Only officially recognized vets can give injections
-The only injections allowed for competing horses are antibiotics and fluids to combat dehydration. (If you need to give anything else, you must first withdraw the horse from competition.)

That second restriction means that the official vets are not swamped.

If you (as under the current therapeutic rules) allow a much larger range of legal injections for competing horses, then I agree that the logistics associated with “only vets can give injections” become horrendous.

Too bad, because it sounded like a good idea in principle.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

[Scarlet_1]

Six months, must have been previous suspensions?

[This message was edited by Scarlet 1 on Jan. 30, 2004 at 02:50 PM.]

[This message was edited by Scarlet 1 on Jan. 30, 2004 at 07:45 PM.]

[Dana]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And in between the first page of the article and the second is a pull out called Supplements Simplified. Todd Minicus and Oh Star are pictured on the front of this 12 page booklet. On the cover it says “See Todd’s SmartPak on P. 11”. I went to P. 11 and I saw nothing about tranquilizers…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lord Helpus, I’m very sorry, but I feel this is a very unfair and inflammatory accusation. I, personally, don’t know all the details (haven’t gotten my USAE mag yet), but it was reported earlier in this thread that the horse that tested postive was Roller Coaster who was a non-showing horse.

I don’t believe that it’s fair to make the assumption that, because Todd may have given Reserpine to a non-showing horse that he also had Oh Star on Reserpine. That’s a bit too big of a leap for me.

Prefacing the following statement with the comment that I’m NOT a vet. I was VERY active at QH shows back when Reserpine was the drug of choice. It became quite easy to identify the horses which were on Reserpine. It has some obvious side-effects. I have seen Oh Star at numerous shows throughout his career, and I never once assumed that he was on a tranquilizer.

Just my opinion…

Friends don’t let friends ride junk!

[Tackpud]

oak - What is the point of the suspension? This really needs to be looked into!

[findeight]

Also puzzled by all the early buzz about anti psychotics and see just good old Resurpine, again.
There was a more recent scandal involving an herbal supplement that in fact contained, but didn’t list, Resurpine and that caught some really top names…and really, who’d want to jump the big sticks with a tranq??

I always wait and see what they say…but also think there are way too many horses given pharmaceutical “help” by “accident”.

And Lordhelpus…too funny…bout fell out of the chair laughing…guess Smart Pak will pull that endorsement or get snickered at every time somebody looks at their catalogue.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That’s the way it is.

[Portia]

They can discern when a drug is given versus when the horse is shown by the metabolites of the drug in the horse’s blood or urine. The drug limitations/allowable levels in the rules are set by levels of metabolites remaining in the blood rather than by time or dosage. The rules don’t say “you can give X amount of banamine 12 hours out,” they say “the maximum permitted plasma concentration of flunixin is 1.0 micorgrams per milliliter.”

They know, from testing and experiments, how long it normally takes for a horse to metabolize X drug at Y dosage, and set the allowable metabolite/blood plasma concentration levels based on that experience – and they actually set those levels pretty generously. The D&M committee issues practical guidelines that say, basically, “to stay within this rule you can generally give X amount at 12 hours out” and in the vast majority of cirucumstances the horse will have less than the permissible level when tested after showing. However, since the way each horse metabolizes a drug can differ, the guidelines for how long out you can give a drug at what dose are necessarily only general guidelines rather than absolutes.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

One problem with all of this is the time aspect. Think of how long some of the hunter classes last now. If we added time for the scoring, we would all be there until midnight every show.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dunno. Might give the judge something to do while sitting there for half an hour waiting for some twit who can’t ride a round without their trainer to stand at the gate and watch…

Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.

[Weatherford]

But that “fresher” syndrome COULD be addressed by improved judging standards - that is, weighing the differing criteria according to what is most important for that class/division. Then giving co-eficients according to that weight…

Say in a 10 jump class, a horse scores 10 for all the jumps (great jumper), 6 on gaits (OK mover), 4 on manners and suitability (late lead change small buck in one corner), and 8 on General impressions (generally a brilliant jumper with a good stride and lovely attitude)… Let’s say this is an Open working class - then, the General Impressions migh have a coefficient of 2, as would the gaits. SO this horse’s score would be 132/150 or 88%.

Say the same course, same horse in a Junior Hunter class where there would also be a coefficient of 2 for Manners - the score would be 136/160 - which would be an 85%

Say, same horse, same course in a CHildren’s Hunter class, where manners gets a 3 coefficient, but gaits do NOT get a coefficient. THAT horse would have a 134/160 - 83%

You see, by weighting those “general impression” marks (that is, the section of marks that are not specific to the jumps themselves), we are giving more weight to the criteria of a division - and the horse still gets full marks for its brilliant jumping ability. (Although, that brilliant jumper might be scored lower in a C/A class, as he tends to be harder to ride.)

YES - this would take a scribe and a calculator, and YES it would take some THOUGHT to develope the sheet and the criteria, but, think about it - it would create SOME KIND of across the board consistency, yet judges could still show their individual opinions…

It’s OUT! Linda Allen’s 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!!

[Molly99]

My point Ghazzu was that in at least of few of the cases, that I am aware of, a VET was the one that recommended and administered the drug in question.

Now, why are the vets being held accountable as well?

I am not saying that the trainers do not deserve some form of punishment, but I do think that EVERYONE should wait until all the facts are released before they flame all the trainers for doing this “on their own.”

Many rely on the advice of their vets and when told that X drug will not harm the horse and can be used for X effect and shown within X days, they tend to believe it. Only to be drug tested positive because they number of days was really Y.

Please note, I am not saying they should have given the drug in the first place, but I question why ALL involved are not treated equally.

[WHISKEY_POPPA]

Ok,but in fairness to all.Owner 1 spent $100k on their fancy hunter,owner 2 spends $500k on their fancy hunter.Trainer 1 is using said vet, who says try this brown bottle it will make your horse quiet,Trainer 2 feels the peer pressure and askshis friend trainer 1 what are you doing(giving everyone equal edge) Trainer 1 & 2 are happy their horses are winning and everything is ducky.Now no one knows what is in this brown bottle,which seems unbelievable to me anyone would give an animal something not knowing what it is,but winning here is key.Gotta make the owner happy.Now the testers show up and everyone is cooked.Trainer 1 &2 say I just did what DR. so and so said to do. I followed his directions perfectly.Now who is too blame???

[Palisades]

I have problems with the idea of Weatherford’s scoring system. Hunters are supposed to be about the whole picture- I would venture that what happens in the air over the jumps is worth very little relative to way of going, pace, strides, etc. Under that system, a horse that bucked in every corner could at worst receive a 0 out of 10, but if it jumped well once the rider got it pointed in the right direction, it could still win the class. That’s just not right- judges need to be able to look at the bigger picture and choose winners who not only performed each “movement” correctly, but did the in between stuff as well. Dressage is different because it really is just a series of one movement after another- hunters has a LOT more of the in between jumps time that you just can’t mark with a system like that.

Additionally, while I like the idea of averaging points, I don’t think that setting an absolute maximum number of shows that horses are allowed to attend is a good idea. The more you limit the amount they can show, the more pressure there is for them to do well at the shows they are at. That means more temptation to drug, to lunge to death, to do a thousand warm-up fences and schooling classes. You can’t mandate responsibility, but you can find ways for cheating to be less tempting. Putting MORE emphasis on the results of a relatively small number of shows is not the way to do that.

[MareOne]

Go to the USA equestrian website, click on membership, then click on the list of suspended persons.