Who do these two juniors ride with, Morgan Levey and Julie Ann Fontaine? Don? And I thought that the stewarts sold Dabble Do Ya? Who is riding her now?
Also Southern Sales Equestrian Center is a big sale barn and they have quite a few horses suspended. That should hurt business.
Courtney
Um, QM, the phrase ‘set down’ is just a colloquialism as far as I know, nothing particularly horsey about it.
Like when Willie sings the line “Send them all to their Maker/And He’ll set them all down” in “Beer For My Horses.”
After 34 pages of tedious and often non-fact based speculation on this thread I am glad that I could finally make a contribution. 
Arnika
You are soooo out of line girlfriend…
mizzwade
When I bought my horse this past summer I had him drug tested as he was so quiet. Cost me around $200 and was done at Texas A&M. I realize tests are expensive due to the nature of technology and the machinery but having only one lab qualified to do the tests is naturally going to run the price up.
Secondly, I object to the proposal of raising the drug testing fee. Why should I who doesn’t cheat pay more to nab those that do. Seems to me that the fines should be higher and I think the idea of a “suspension” is laughable as obviously some BNT’s do as well as noted on Sidelines.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Peggy:
I believe this is the rule at FEI competitions?? (only vet can give injections)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I can’t speak for other FEI competitions, but I believe when we have an FEI class at a USEF horse show, only those animals competing are subject to this rule and only for 24 hours prior to competition.
The idea of only vets giving injections runs into some practical issues. If I choose to give my horse IV banamine because a) I can control both the legal amount and timing to more exactly comply with the rule and b) I prefer to avoid the risks of giving an IM shot and c) the variability with giving it in his feed, then it means I have to pay a vet bill, whereas people who might be less concerned about a, b or c can go about there merry way.
And this doesn’t even cover all the legal and illegal drugs that come in pills (hint - this includes reserpine).
And the upshot is that horse shows are transient in nature, so you couldn’t enforce some sort of no needles/syringes rule a la racetrack (and that assumes it is actually enforced well at the track). So the upshot is that peole who follow the rules would have added cost and inconvenience to their lives, but the ones who were not following the rules to begin with would go about their business just like before.
Nope, this idea sounds long on good intentions, short on practical application and would mostly likely only affect the folks who weren’t part of the problem to begin with.
Getting rid of dex and stacked NSAIDS, now there’s an idea…
“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan
C. Boylen, you live at the top of the horse show iceberg. The vast majority of horse showers, who wallow about on the part of the iceberg beneath the surface, think Wellington is something green and rubber your put on your feet.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandstone:
I was talking about a specific instance. I know that their are people who drug horses illegally on purpose. I think that they should be punished. But there were some trainers who were recently led to believe something would not test when it actually would. I don’t think that means they did anything wrong. Of course they should have been more aware of what was in it. That is their bad but I don’t think that makes them cheaters.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
It most certainly does, and they most certainly did do something wrong. The most time-honored method of cheating in athletics is using performance-enhancing drugs for which there’s no test (yet). This scandal will pass; new, untestable drugs will be developed and used with wild abandon; eventually a test for the new designer drugs will be developed, and trainers will cry foul (“but…but…I thought it wouldn’t test!”). If that’s the best defense the trainer(s) you know can come up with, they deserve to be on the suspension list.
It seems odd to me that you came barrelling in here claiming inside information that would make all of us rethink our opinions on the suspensions, then turn out to only know of one suspension that you think unfair.
And while I’m sure you mean well, this particular gem –
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I’m going to try to say this in the nicest way that I can, but the people who seem
the most upset about this are the people who do more local things or don’t show hunters at all and are for the most part uneducated (or less educated) about horse shows and BNTs then the people who aren’t as upset.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
– does little to counter the particularly nasty belief (that, BTW, most of the big-show-showing and nice-horse-owning posters here wish would die) that simply by virtue of showing at a high level, people must be involved in illegal drugging or else don’t care that it goes on. In other words, they care more about winning than they do about their horses.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If mroe of you took part in huge shows and had extremely talented, hard working horses you would feel differently about htis situation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I hope not.
I sympathize with the pressures trainers face. I really do. But that’s just another reason why, since many of them are indeed stuck between a rock and a hard place, what is needed is industry leadership that will pull them out of that place. It’s the major reason why there needs to be truly equal and fair representation on the various committees. Too many people who have had the power accept the status quo (the rock and the hard place).
I’m just aching to see what happens under the new NGB. Dying to see if proposals to address issues like these will get blocked like they did before. How many years have discussions been going on about changing the judging standards without any progress whatsoever?
Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html
No problem budman! 
I think most people speak from what they see & experience so since every area is different, people are going to see different things. In my area the 3’ divisions are swamped (especially the adults) yet if they have enough to split the A/O’s in 2 age groups it’s a miracle so I don’t get to see many of the 3’6" & above hunters jump around.
I think the issues in the show world are so complicated and intertwined that it would take years to fix everything. But at least we should start…
Regarding fitness, most riders and trainers doing the hunters don’t want a fit horse. They want one that will peter out and look quiet w/o much work. That is not as detrimental for the TB as it is for the WB. Most TB’s are naturally muscled in the right places so getting them fit for the job takes less work. Also, their lighter bone structure is easier on their joints when they don’t jump as much.
HOWEVER, the WB is heavier in bone and takes ALOT to get fit. They need more muscle to protect their joints from the concussion of their heavier bodies. So, when you have a WB, he really needs to get out and cross-train to truly be fit. He needs hill work, hacking out, light jumping, flatwork, long walks, and a bit of serious jumping. This would require the horse being ridden at least 4-5 days a week, not including the show. How would that work for a horse that lives on the road???
I have to agree with hoopoe, the hearings and penalties are not “made enough of.” That’s probably one of the reasons the “bad apples” of the group keep doing it.
I just got the last issue of the USA Eq. magazine and couldn’t believe how many BNT’s were cited for using reserpine.
I would like to see an article about this in the COTH.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
So tryptothane is legal, and Valarium root isn’t?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Theoretically, giving tryptophan for purposes of altering mental status is against the rules.
In reality, it is an amino acid which is naturally occurring, so there is no way to test for it.
Same holds for Mg and Ca.
Valerian root is not a normal constituent of equine serum, and can be tested for.
Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.
Why would you have more reason to drug your horse at a C rated show?
I’ll willingly take back my “proposal” (since people seem to be taking it as that, even though that wasn’t the intention - my point was simply illustrative) about ending the winter circuits. For us in the South, in particular, the winter circuit is our circuit - because it’s too freakin’ hot down here and the ground is much too hard in July and August to go jumping around!
But I do think the marketing of the winter circuits as the be-all/end-all has proven, over time, to be detrimental to the horses and therefore detrimental to the industry. There once was a time when BNT’s up north did not feel they had to travel South for the winter (any more than Southern BNT’s feel they have to travel North for the summer). It was an option. (And yes, Chanda, it sure the heck did look like a paid vacation, when viewed in the context of a 7 a.m. phone call from your barn staff who need help digging a manure spreader out of 4 feet of snow and ice!) When the money started getting big down South (circa the advent of the Tampa Gold Cup, when was that now, late 60s, early 70s?) a lot of us up North could see the writing on the wall: clients would want to go, the horses would end up staying on the road 24/7/365, and that meant more people using more questionable methods to keep those horses propped up and jumping.
And sure enough, that’s where we’re at. Nowadays if you want to keep your BNT status, it’s pretty much mandatory to do the winter circuits, no matter how hard your horses have campaigned the rest of the year. This it be wrong.
But (not unusually) I stray from my point. Which is that I think people who refuse to play by the rules deserve to have their toys taken away. Preferably, for a very long time. And we need to figure out a way to make that happen. Maybe we need an independent regulatory commission?? Or would that just make matters worse? Let’s brainstorm here, folks.
I certainly don’t want to see the problem get SO bad that it becomes a national scandal, the government moves in, and the industry gets locked down so tight that an owner or a trainer gets suspended for a year for even being in possession of a syringe. (Ask the Standardbred racing community whether I’m exaggerating about that.) It could happen.
In order to avoid such a scenario, owners and trainers alike must act more responsibly toward their horses. And if they won’t do it voluntarily, then I think some drug rules with teeth and some suspensions with even bigger teeth are quite definitely in order. And I most certainly would not be averse, either, to suspensions and fines for show management companies that refuse to cooperate with the spirit as well as the letter of the law.
“No horse with cart horse blood inside three crosses can stand an extreme test against horses bred for Epsom Downs and the Metairie Course…”
–Marguerite Bayliss, The Bolinvars
I am glad I am not the only one who thought limo wrek’s reply was a little 
, but if you look at all this person’s posts, you will understand his/her attitude toward this. I am not sure if this is an alter or if this person is serious…
Devilpups
We are now the Knights Who Say ‘Ecky- ecky- ecky- ecky- pikang- zoop- boing- goodem- zoo- owli- zhiv’
Have to add, if a trainer isn’t a vet, there is no reason they can be expected to administer medication.
interesting to see that Barney Ward has at least 6horses on the list if not more…
C.Botlen said<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Eek. Four years? Coming from this particular amateur, it would have to be one he** of a horse for me to put four years into it to make it anything. Now, granted, I make up to sell. But if I put four years into a horse I’d have a whole lot of capital invested in it, and once it was made up it would have to be a pretty expensive horse for the next person. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I ccan fully understand your perspective, since you are tryoing to make a profit.
But for most amateurs in general, and even, I suspect, a lot of the amateurs competing at the top level, there is no profit motive. “Horses” is simply where we choose to spend our entertainment money (earned in another field entirely).
So if it takes 2,4,10, 20 years to “make up” a horse, as long as we are getting enjoyment out of the process, we are getting our money’s worth.
Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
yup it is used in small doses for epileptics, animals and humans.
Sorry C. Boylen. Maybe its Art. 410 in it’s entirety which is the relevant one. You’re right no where does it state you must fill in a report. Nor, does it state that you don’t need too either. 
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