Yes, PV and BW are suspended for life. However, there is a reevaluation after 10 years or so.
Courtney
Well, since Darkerhorse so bravely laid out his medication program I’ll lay out mine.
Well, that was easy. Now, about my horse. I have an OTTB that fractured left front P2 as a 2yo, had 3 screws inserted initially, and 2 later removed. You can actually feel the end of the remaining screw. He toes in both front, more severely on the LF due to the old injury. He has a slight bow on LF. I’ve had the horse exactly 9 years (since 12/31/94) and I think I’ve given him a grand total of 7 tabs of bute. For the first 2 years I showed him, we went to 2 shows a month (trainer requirement). Now he does 12-20 shows from April -Sept. I lesson once a week. He is 14 years old, and I rode him yesterday and thought, wow, he feels better than ever.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jn1193:
…
Having followed this thread for awhile, I gave the USAF a call re: their testing policy. The information is interesting. To wit: USAF budgets $2.2 million/year for testing. With this budget, they are able to test approximately 1 out of every 6 shows. That’s shows of all disciplines, not just H/J. It also means that the odds are NOT in favor of many people being caught - the math works in the favor of the cheaters. With the budget at $2.2 million, presuming it is covered by the $10 drug fee, means that 220,000 horses/entries are paying for the testing program. With 1-in-6 shows being tested, only 37,000 of these entries might get tested. Since less than 10% of horses at any one show might be tested (and the actual percentage is far less), then maybe 3,700 entries out of those 220,000 get tested. That’s sad - and makes the drug testing program very expensive for such a small sample. If my math holds, this makes the cost per horse to test around $600, not $350.
…
The bottom line is that nothing will change until testing is more widespread and that some testing is done at 5 out of 6 shows instead of 1-in-6.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would suggest that it would be reasonable to have a drug testing fee = avg. class fee
in my area/discipline that would be ~$35 per show vs the current $10
with that increase, there could be greater #s tested
why anyone should object to paying the $s that are going toward the ultimate health and well-being of the animals that are making our sport possible - I can’t see (I don’t drug, no one that I know drugs but I’d be happy to pay more at each show to help protect the horses against those who do)
“That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I’m just the one to do it,” --Texas congressional candidate John F. Parker.
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
LEP, I’m pointing out that you can’t assume the riders in the preadults are beginner-intermidate riders. Some are very skilled riders who, for various reasons, are riding their green horses themselves. The pre adult is at 2’6, the pregreens at 3’. Many are looking for mileage at a low height before moving the horse into the AAs, or pregreens if they are that good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
But in any event it matters not to the judge, and nor should it. If the horse is in a pre-green class by definition it is new to showing, and maybe/probably a young animal, regardless of who shows it. The judging standard should (and does) allow for this.
Meanwhile in the pre adults, the intent of the class is to provide a low level class for adult riders who presumably are not that experienced. Ignoring the fact that in real life many people don’t move up, the intent of the division is still as described. The horse should be a steadier, more reliable animal than one in a pre-green class.
Now if you want to give your green horse mileage in a pre-adult class for whatever reasons, more power to you. But you should not expect the same degree of forgiveness from the judge when your green horse pulls a greenie stunt in a pre adult hunter class as compared to a pre-green class. And this isn’t exactly a new idea. There are plenty of future A/O green horses shown in the pre-green divisions at WEF that venture into the A/A ring. And they pull green bean stunts. I’ve starred in that movie several times with more than one horse, and a know a few others who have too.
“I used to care, but things have changed…” Bob Dylan
It’s the date their suspension begins. Some have the date of the entire suspension (ex: 11/01/03 - 03/01/04)
All the holier-than-thou’s on this thread need to get a clue. If your vet (or animal communicator or whatever) said ‘I’ve found a way for your horse to be more comfortable doing his job’ you’d probably nominate yourselves for a noble prize and tell everyone about it on the internet. Ditto for your grandmother’s arthritis pills and the stuff you give your dog if you can figure out a way for insurance to pay the $. Why’s it different with a horse?
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
Flame suit on, but this thread keeps hitting on the periphery of MY favorite topic: the price of good horses. Many posters have mentioned that trainers are pushed into making expensive horses work, and sometimes, to do that, they resort to drugging.
Well, the trainers are part of the problem at several levels here. The drugging, as has been mentioned frequently, but also in the price of these expensive horses, to begin with.
I can quote chapter and verse of the horses who are priced by the seller at $30,000, while the buyer pays $60,000. Or the one priced at $75,000 which, after all commissions, costs the buyer $125,000, etc. etc.
Perhaps, just perhaps, if the buyer thinks they got the horse for a good price, they might be more willing to allow the trainer some time to work out some glitches. But, the pressure is on the trainer to create an instant winner when the buyer pays the TOP of his/her price range, if not higher.
When I bought horses through a BNT, it was funny how EVERY horse they showed me was priced exactly at the top of my budget. Even sadder was how long it took me to catch on. So I can see how other buyers can be taken in, just as I was…<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I agree, but really how many trainers are super rich and drive top line cars and live in 4 story houses in the best areas of town?
I really can’t think of that many.
I think being a professional in the horse world and being able to make a really really good living is close to impossible, except for a very few ammount of trainers are able to pull off making a ton of money. Most are only trying to make ends meet.
The ones that do make a ton of money produce tons of horses that they can sell or buy for clients and make money off comissions. But this is pretty rare, even for those who do win a ton.
People aren’t horse professionals to get rich, LOL. The raw costs of doing a horse is just so expensive.
Perhaps we should explore this issue and try to lower the costs of horses so that more people can buy nicer horses for less money and the trainers can make more profit and live better lifestyles.
Also, I’d imagine that those trainers who do make a ton of money had some family money or a good investor to help set up the winning formula they have now.
Why D’ya Do It?
Well said, JustJump.
I like Weatherford’s idea. I think that some judges probably already do this.
For example, a horse in the pre-greens is usually allowed to have a few more manners incidents and still win if it is a good jumper and flashy mover with tons of potential. A horse in the pre-adult division, as a contrast, will win because it is a calm, steady and consistent horse. If its bucking in the corner, its not going to win.
That is totally appropriate. A horse in the pre-adults is probably being ridden by an intermediate beginner, who needs a SAFE horse. A horse in the pre-greens is normally being ridden by a professional or other very skilled rider, and the horse itself is … GREEN!
I like the idea of setting expectations and certain standards for the various divisions.
The Working Hunters are MOVING in the ring - a hand gallop almost (think Strapless). The AA hunters are loping and looking relaxed.
Good thoughts Weatherford!
LondonHannahKirsche
Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!
If you are a suspended trainer aren’t all the horses you own suspended as well? I know Don owns horses, Hilton and Fernwalk are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. Why are they not on the suspended horse list?
“I’m not going to have reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president.”
– Hilary Clinton
LimoWrek - I had wondered about the possible effects of too much calcium and magnesium. In my limited exposure to BNT’s I have become aware of more than one using this combo. Poor horses…
have problems with the idea of Weatherford’s scoring system. Hunters are supposed to be about the whole picture- I would venture that what happens in the air over the jumps is worth very little relative to way of going, pace, strides, etc. Under that system, a horse that bucked in every corner could at worst receive a 0 out of 10, but if it jumped well once the rider got it pointed in the right direction, it could still win the class. That’s just not right- judges need to be able to look at the bigger picture and choose winners who not only performed each “movement” correctly, but did the in between stuff as well. Dressage is different because it really is just a series of one movement after another- hunters has a LOT more of the in between jumps time that you just can’t mark with a system like that.
Did you not at all understand Weatherford’s proposal? Or is it the math that is throwing you?
Hmmm… horse scored on manners & suitability, gaits, general impression, and jump. So if no co-efficient is applied, that makes the quality of jump worth 25% of the total score. If a coefficient of 2 is applied to both manners and general impression, the jump is now worth only 16%.
That said, the quality of jump should be as important as what happens between the fences. Why do you think one rub will take someone out of contention even if everything else was fantastic?
I dont like the idea of breaking up a round and scoring it like that. not to be corny but, do you grade a poem by ok the ryme is good that counts for 15% of its greatness and the words are ok and that counts for 10% ect ect? I hope you dont, riding especially hunters is an art not a math problem, its the feeling you get from watching or riding a beautiful round that makes it a great round (same with say a painting).
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by budman:
Also, I resent your implication that if someone wants a safe horse they should realize that the sport has risks and get out. If because of age or injury (in my case) someone wants to feel extremely confident that they won’t fall barring a bizarre accident, then that’s OKAY. I know I can fall at any time. I just ask my trainer to put me on a safe horse to LESSEN the likelihood.
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Sorry, I worded that wrong. And I still might, but here it goes: what I meant to say is that some of these “older” adults (in my area, not ALL areas) will go flying off should their horse hop for a change or shake the head. These are already nice horses that are quiet (in my opinion), but due to the age of the riders & the trainers wanting to make sure they get around with a ribbon, the horses are made even quieter. Wasn’t trying to imply that if you won’t ride the broncos to get out of the sport. I want a quiet horse myself to lessen the chances of eating dirt too.
I guess I am tired of hearing the reasoning for the “quieting” of horses is that the trainer’s feel responsible to repeat the previous performances when the clients spend so much money purchasing the fancy horse in the first place. I think they need to explain that horse’s aren’t machines that can perform perfectly 100% of the time & that you can’t win it all the time. But I think some trainers are swayed by the clients & that’s where the unethical decision making starts.
I don’t know who’s going to be on the list or why they are going to be. I can only hope that perhaps some of the illegal eagles from the area by me will be on it as some richly deserve to be. It will be an interesting winter.
Tell me, Schatzi, you mean it’s twue that Germans used steriods on their athletes? Oh, yes, the old East German team, jawol, I remember now. Man, they were machines.
HOPEFUL HUNTER - I never commented on anyone who does not/cannot show at the big shows like WEF. All I was saying that NOBODY has the right to make generalizations like you did. You have no idea how much I sacrifice in my life to be able to show at WEF or how much I love my horse. Plus I am sick and tired of all the petty jealousy and the have its v. the have nots that seems to be pervading this board these days. Not saying that you are responsible for this, but your post does not help the situation.
BTW, thank you for your apology.
Midge, any more hints as to the trainer involved in the Ca overdose at CC? Does ‘on vacation now’ mean someone that was in this month’s USAEq mag…? I hope that in this case what goes around eventually comes around in a big way!
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sopha:
Valerie Brodsky had some paper issues if I remember correctly. Her daughter was Jill and I can’t for the life of me remember the pony (Martini Mouse comes to mind but I think that is just because that was a pony at that time) I think the daughter quit riding and there was little regard as to who may or may not have received proper paper. Nice quiz! (and who was their pony??)
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Well done! “Paper” is so politically correct. The pony was a large named “Jacob” but the prefix escapes me right now. A really fancy large. He didn’t get on the list because he croaked before the owner got suspended 
Well, you know what I don’t understand? I don’t understand how an intelligent group of people can be willing to accept gossip as gospel. I don’t understand why no one is willing to give anyone the benefit of the doubt, in a situation where none of the facts are yet known. I don’t understand how people can so easily separate their worlds into good and bad and black and white. I don’t understand why people are willing to believe the worst, and are unable to be swayed by information. I don’t understand how some people can be so willfully naive, and others so cynical. I don’t understand how anyone can honestly claim that they’ve never made a mistake, either in character judgement, management, or sense, or presume to cast judgement upon those that have.
Not your trainer, silly. All over the horse’s knee. Then the trainer can wipe it off if desired.
Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain
Well, apparently the “Texas trainer” has stepped forward, at least according to Sidelines. Nice to know he feels such remorse.
