THE suspension list

[khobstetter]

I for one am NOT against the drug fees at the shows being raised…IF there are more tests being taken out there.

A question was asked:
<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Secondly, I object to the proposal of raising the drug testing fee. Why should I who doesn’t cheat pay more to nab those that do?

Seems to me that the fines should be higher and I think the idea of a “suspension” is laughable as obviously some BNT’s do as well as noted on Sidelines. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We would have to absorb the raised fees BECAUSE we DO want the playing field level!!! Obviously the ones who use this stuff do NOT want the playing field level and if we do…we have to pay!!! Not fair but at least an option I don’t mind paying. I would gladly pay a fee to $20-25 a horse per show IF it got A LOT of horses tested so the field were better!!!

The second part of the quote above is THE real solution also…make it hurt…for most of these BNT’s the fines are just a bit more than the charge for training one horse for one month…

Make it hurt them and maybe they will adjust a bit…maybe not…but these tinsy teensy fines don’t hurt them at all!!!

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

[RockinHorse]

Oh PLEEEEEEZE

Quote by Sandstone <BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think that if all of you knew why so many big names were suspended this particular time, you wouldn’t be upset. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They broke the rules and got caught. What is it beyond that fact that we should know?

Quote by Sandstone <BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I’m going to try to say this in the nicest way that I can, but the people who seem the most upset about this are the people who do more local things or don’t show hunters at all and are for the most part uneducated (or less educated) about horse shows and BNTs then the people who aren’t as upset. If mroe of you took part in huge shows and had extremely talented, hard working horses you would feel differently about htis situation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless people have specifically said, I don’t know how one can presume to know at what level people participate. Do you mean that you think if people are more educated about big shows and BNTs they are not as concerned about drugs because they have known all along what is going on?

Quote by Sandstone <BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I know why they were and it was NONE of their faults. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I do believe mistakes etc can happen but ALL of them are innocent. Sorry can’t buy it.

~~ Does killing time hurt eternity?~~

[MHM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SydneyS:
There’s not alot of galloping going on at the horse shows. Some of the 3’6" horses get a good clip, but the real gallop is not a regular occurence, even with the winners.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you seen Scott Stewart in action?

Or Emily Williams on Strapless?

The good ones are not afraid to gallop.

[Jumphigh83]

“Real” fines??? Are you kidding?? $500 for Jane Clark is like 5 cents to you and me. She spends that for a bad day at the spa…on the tip.

Betsy
www.threewindsfarmny.com

Lead, follow, or get out of the way…

[Nix]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bodacious:
I have a talented, hardworking horse that is shown on the “A” circuit and what I have read on this thread is very upsetting!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess I would have to agree with this post… I’ve been around the block for a while (22 years) and I know that things go on. I’m just a bit taken back by some things that have been said here.

I guess I figure that if you ride horses, you must really like animals. That’s a pretty “blanket” statement, I know, but don’t these trainers take into consideration the animal’s well-being? Is it all for money? Success in the show ring?

I was stunned this past year when walking from the restroom at a nice A show. A pretty successful and well known barn was stabled by us. I walked past to see a groom holding three syringes right out in the open. I made a mental note to myself “thanking” that I didn’t ride against that barn the next day.

“Yes, and thank goodness for our differences. If everyone wanted the same thing, we’d be in a pickle.” our very own COTH member, Pixie Dust

[NinaL_aka_Chrissy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Of course, the other change that these 70 pages point to is a change of the way hunters are judged. What happened to DIFFERENT priorities for different divisions?? I happen to LIKE the idea of a “dressage-like” score sheet - not that it has to LIMIT the course builders, but that it gives the judges an opportunity to numerically differentiate between JUMPING, between fences, manners, suitability, brilliance, etc. It would take a LOT of work to develop these, but I think worth the effort. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am in your corner on this one Weatherford (not that your other suggestions aren’t support-worthy; it’s just that I have been beating this particular drum for a number of years now). The way hunters are judged today has turned a hunter class into a competition to find out who can perform a trip with the least number of mistakes. So you end up seeing the stylish jumper who tosses his head getting beat by the less brilliant performer who never puts a foot wrong. So, bottom line, he/she who “preps” best will often win the class.

I know that people think it will be more difficult for judges to score like this but you don’t have to require comments, etc.; just an individual score for each fence plus a little bit of time for the coefficient scores. The tallying of the scores could be done right in the judge’s booth by a show official.

Oh, and how interesting to include a coefficient for rider’s position like they do in dressage. Might get rid of all those exaggerated positions we see these days.

Gee, the more I think about this the more I like it.

Nina off to pound the bongos again

[radio_talk_Aefvue_Fa]

With all the new tests, that have been developed, there are those who are hunting down, the new untestable drug as we speak. When in conversations, you sometimes hear unbelievable things. One would think, with my “deer in the headlights” look they might think before they speak. Not so. They are in fact bragging. Showing someone, they are smarter! It seems to be a game with so many.

The racing industry has been dealing with this for eons. Not being involved, can anyone tell us how it’s being addressed? Used to hear of trainers licenses being pulled for drugging etc.

Darker Horse, have you explored the long term effects of Dex? You might want to.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sesroh:
Is it right to change the standard because too many people don’t own the natural born hunter or because people who don’t own the natural don’t want to put in the time and effort to get their horses to this point? .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The standard is already changed.
Today’s show hunter is a far cry from what a hunter was in the day when you needed a note from the MFH to show in the working hunters.

Perhaps a little reversion to the old way is warranted.

I hesitate to even say this, but, IMHO, part of the evolution of the current standard is that to keep a horse going like the winners do, one almost has to keep a horse in training.
Hence, by picking that type of horse, trainer/judges ensure their livelihood.

This particular concept is debated hotly and frequently in Arabian horse circles, and I believe it applies to a large extent here.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.

[lucky2day99]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Darker Horse:
Why would it be legal if it could hurt horses as much as you guys are making it out. The article itself said prolonged dex exposure of a few months is a bad thing. How can once a week, for not more than two weeks in a row, for not more than two weeks out of a month really be that bad?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because in my mind, if you have to give a drug that is ten times stronger than predisone to keep him “happy” so you can show means that perhaps the horse should not be showing at that level and frequency.

Also— a legal drug… tylenol is legal for people to take otc… but you can take enough to destroy your liver in not so large of a dose. Just because something is legal does not mean it can not harm a horse when it is used very frequently.

Christina

[Kellsboro_Jack]

Can anyone explain the logic as to why a horse can be banned from recognized shows? Obviously Barney Ward will never be reinstated to good standing, but isn’t the barring of all of his horses from competition ”" as long as he will be - mean essentially their careers are over?

All due respect, if that is the correct way to read it, then I have to say it exceeds being idiotic. A show jumper of grand prix capabilities now becomes what? A mere lesson horse, lawn ornament, polo pony … or plow horse?

I think it was George Lindemann who sued the AHSA claiming he shouldn’t be barred as riding was his profession [inference being it was his financial livelihood] which didn’t fly for an heir of a billon dollar estate. However, the same claim for a horse seems fully applicable and if you were to humanize the situation then how could the horse have done anything to warrant being barred?

[MsHunter]

Thanks Richard, we are working on “lovely”!

OK I am insured per my CCC insurance, and I am covered when veterinarian has dispensed medication and spoken with owner and given consent to medicate. I guess what I am saying is that my veterinarian isn’t just going to give me banamine robax and dex to horse show on and my customers surely aren’t going to ask for it. That to me is where I’d be stepping over the line and so would the veterinarian. That being said, Yes, I have been prescribed robax and have used in on a horse before, but we didn’t horse show on it, we stay within time/dosage limits according to USEF rules.

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

[Jeannette_formerly_ponygyrl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:

Then people shouldn’t do business with him. That is simple. However, people do, so he still makes a good living buying and selling horses, even though he can’t go to shows…

_ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I should start a new thread, but the latest USDF mag had an interessting summary of new USA Eq rules - one being that “Horses may be exercised and ridden only in management designated areas on the competition grounds…horses boarded on adjacent grounds cannot be warmed up for classes in their home arenas instead of management designated warm up rings.” (Quotes from Janine Malone’s article, not directly from new rule)

Sounds like this could have some interesting ramifications for some of the winter shows and trainers, couldn’t it???

[poltroon]

The Notice of Penalty always includes the name of the forbidden substance, and the horse it was found in, if that is the reason.

Yet another reason why I think it’s important to have those be searchable and archived - let people know that yes, it was for drugs, but it was for caffeine, or stacking NSAIDs, or whatever. Then future customers can make an informed decision about whether to be concerned or not.

The Notice will also include findings like “took into consideration that PERSON was relying upon the advice of her veterinarian that the supplement did not contain performance enhancing substances” etc. Remember last year when people tested positive for resperine? They had to give their prizes back but did not face suspension, IIRC.

[radio_talk_Aefvue_Fa]

Lauriep, wasn’t coming down on trainers, judges or owners. In fact was trying to state there are many factors in this problem that need to be addressed. Sorry if I didn’t quite make that clear.

Yes, know all about those moneyed clients who don’t have the time or energy to be pulled.

[Silver_Bells]

GATOGORDO… Try desperate trainers and owners who will stop at nothing to win… and I almost forgot…the “prestigious” year end awards.
Wow, some of the current and past winners of year end awards, were actually exhibited by trainers that are currently “set down”!

GO FIGURE…

[MsHunter]

I will venture a guess at your question Weatherford. I have seen MORE lame horses from front feet being sore, and ouchy going unrecognized due to BAD shoeing jobs. I could be WAY off base here, but lo and behold they are sound, then they start work they get shoes and BAD BAD WENT TO 3 MONTH school started shoeing, farrier shows up and after 10 years he is NO better than the first 3 months he went to Suzie Cheescake shoeing school in Oklahoma. Along with all the old horseman that are gone, SO are the great farriers. I have one I won’t EVER let go. HE has FIXED MANY horses sent to me LAME and sore and stopping, all by himself with NOT much veterinary intervention. keep putting those shoes on too small and fitting the foot to the shoe, instead of the shoe to the foot and not TRAINING the foot to grow properly and you will continue to have horses with navicular and stifle injuries and sore hocks etc. Also, we use pads, WHO CARES if everyone thinks they aren’t sound, as long as they aren’t doing conformation classes I don’t give a darn. If they get older and need more support give it to them. Anyway, I bet my bottom dollar this is a BIG REASON why so many are lame or in meed of meds. I have seen MORE horses even with top trainers with 2 very different front feet that NO ONE worked on to fix. I also saw MANY we had that were fixed that we saw again and were ruined and LAME… Hmm. Connection?

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class=“ip-ubbcode-quote”><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Midge:

What I don’t understand are vets who do this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Likewise.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique…just settin’ on the Group W bench.

[CBoylen]

Findeight,
I hear that explanation for the ‘use’ of cocaine a lot too, but it doesn’t sound reasonable to me. A cocaine high lasts for 30 minutes in a person (just to clarify, I don’t know this from personal experience, but I do have some observational experiences. I would just like to add that in here before someone decides to ignore the rest of the post and point fingers ). It seems like if you wanted one up all night you’d have to be out there repeatedly dosing it. Leaving all other issues out of it, it just doesn’t make sense on an economic or productive basis.
I do, however, see a lot of cocaine use by grooms and others around the shows, so the explanation of accidental ingestion does make sense to me in most cases.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

[clearound]

FLASH 44 - As one who just sold a made 3ft horse and purchased a green 3ft horse, I can tell you that a made 3ft horse who can win at the big AA shows is an enormous amount of money. I know of certain horses that are know showing in the A/A that were sold for mid 6 figures. As a result, the pressure on the trainers for these horses to win is in fact tremendous. I am not, and want to repeat that I am not, for one second, condoning the use of illegal drugs.

I also think that the innuendos in many of these postings is disgusting. As I am intimately familar with the names, and the facts, of several that will be on the next suspension list, I can assure you that the number of people who were/will be suspended is probably less that .05 percent of the people who would consider to be BNTs.

Not all BNTs use illicit drugs on their horses!

Why don’t we let this die until everyone has the facts.

[jumpsalot]

How did the fact that these people are going to be suspended come ouot in public in the first place?
I am sure that some was from trainers making sure their customers would be taken care of in their absence, but rumors have been flying since before the hearings.IE- that there are judges, BNTs(we now know ONE),etc…

I am just as interested in whodunnit as the rest of you guys…but 15 pages?

At least at these hearings, there is physical evidence to make a ruling. Not just he said/ she said stuff.

Ignorance is bliss…
and I am VERY,VERY happy!