Deleting my thread-starter because my question has been answered and then my thread was hijacked.
Go ahead and argue, people. I’m off to ride with my SO, who is still my SO despite some COTHers’ opinions that we would be forever in the friend zone so I should leave him.
:disgust:
We use the snaffle bit for getting a horse’s head up and for steering. The curb bit is used as leverage to help in getting the horse to tuck its nose. Ideally you should have very soft contact on the curb and only apply pressure when you need the horse to set its head.
mand_asbfan has the basics.
Some trainers are noted for how well they are able to get a horse to work off the curb, and you may see them riding more off the curb than the snaffle. Don Harris is one of them. In this picture of him and the great Imperator you can see he is holding the reins switched from the usual way of holding them, he has his curb on the bottom and snaffle on top! http://i148.photobucket.com/albums/s14/timmbur/Archive%20Photos/ImperatorDonHarris.jpg
Here are some high quality classic Saddlebred home movies from the 1940s. The one of Easter Parade and Frank Bradshaw has slow motion segmants. https://www.youtube.com/user/MorganDora1
IMHO the whole “snaffle to raise/curb to tuck” thing is so oversimplified and honestly doesn’t apply to all horses. I use the curb to raise the head and collect the horse, and I use the snaffle mainly to rate the speed. The tension on my reins is usually fairly even and fairly light. As for “tucking the nose” if the horse goes around with its nose out, it needs to go back to basics. They should be flexed and supple because they are relaxed and happy - not because of the bits in their mouth.
In Saddle Seat, you will rarely see a curb shank pulled much beyond 25-30 degrees, whereas on a Dressage horse, it’s common to see them at 45 degrees or more - pulled straight back in line with the reins. I don’t know if that’s because the curb chains are left really long or if they are just pulling that hard.
Also 75-100 years ago most 3 gaited horses were only ridden in a curb. If you needed a full bridle on your 3 gaited horse it was a sign that your horse was not high headed enough!
While a full bridle is obviously used in the ring, it isn’t used in the barn like it used to.
30 years (Ackkk!) when I started riding, it was with a full bridle, even as an up-downer barely able to post. At times the curb rein might have been tied in a knot and not used, or a leg wrap neck strap (a la Helen Crabtree) was used, but the horse was still in a full bridle. Only exception I remember was the one who was ridden in a Pelham.
Once a horse was in a full bridle, they stayed there. I used to trail ride a retired show horse in a full bridle because that was all she’d been ridden in for the last 15-18 years.
Now, kids learn with one rein, maybe a snaffle with 2 reins - one run through a martingale. Horses seem to stay in a single bit forever. From what I’ve seen in the ring, I’m not sure it’s an improvement (riders or horses).
While a full bridle is obviously used in the ring, it isn’t used in the barn like it used to.
30 years (Ackkk!) when I started riding, it was with a full bridle, even as an up-downer barely able to post. At times the curb rein might have been tied in a knot and not used, or a leg wrap neck strap (a la Helen Crabtree) was used, but the horse was still in a full bridle. Only exception I remember was the one who was ridden in a Pelham.
Once a horse was in a full bridle, they stayed there. I used to trail ride a retired show horse in a full bridle because that was all she’d been ridden in for the last 15-18 years.
Now, kids learn with one rein, maybe a snaffle with 2 reins - one run through a martingale. Horses seem to stay in a single bit forever. From what I’ve seen in the ring, I’m not sure it’s an improvement (riders or horses).
Or, you can ride TWH or other gaited breeds single rein saddleseat 
I did ASB lessons for a while in a double bridle and always thought it was a PITA.
There’s a reason the saddle seat medal is also called the “good hands” class.
[QUOTE=Tiffani B;7746858]
In Saddle Seat, you will rarely see a curb shank pulled much beyond 25-30 degrees, whereas on a Dressage horse, it’s common to see them at 45 degrees or more - pulled straight back in line with the reins. I don’t know if that’s because the curb chains are left really long or if they are just pulling that hard.[/QUOTE]
Maybe because dressage folks don’t just go around the arena at full spin for a few minutes and have to actually do a lots of movements and at different gaits, so yeah, some do pull on the reins.
Maybe because there are precise rules about which bits can be used and how tight the curb chain must be? (all our equipment is checked after every ride by a steward). Most, if not all, bits used in saddleseat competition wouldn’t be legal in dressage because deemed too harsh… Just sayin’
Thanks, everybody!
Wow – I never thought I would ever get to see Wing Commander in action! Awesome!
You seem to think showing a Saddlebred is simple. I suggest you go over to USEF Network and look up the videos of the Five Gaited Special classes from Devon from this year or last or the National Horse Show from last year. In these classes top hunter/jumper riders catch rode Five Gaited Saddlebreds. The horse loans to them were top horses, many current and former World’s Champions. If you watch the videos you’ll see most of the riders had trouble doing the correct gait when called for. Clearly going around the arena and displaying a horse to the peak if it’s ability until the judge decides he/she has seen enough is far more difficult than a rail bird might guess 
Also keep in mind this base difference between assisting a Saddlebred and showing a dressage horse: in the Saddlebred ring the quality of the horse is judged, in the dressage ring the quality of your training is judged.
Popcorn time.
[QUOTE=alibi_18;7747132]
Maybe because dressage folks don’t just go around the arena at full spin for a few minutes and have to actually do a lots of movements and at different gaits, so yeah, some do pull on the reins.
Maybe because there are precise rules about which bits can be used and how tight the curb chain must be? (all our equipment is checked after every ride by a steward). Most, if not all, bits used in saddleseat competition wouldn’t be legal in dressage because deemed too harsh… Just sayin’[/QUOTE]
Or maybe it because we use minimal pressure and aren’t hauling on the horse’s mouth all the time. While some horses require quite a bit of snaffle, I haven’t ridden one yet that requires more than just a little bit of curb. On my current show horse I barely touch his mouth-just tiny corrections here and there. If you put a full bridle (dressage style) on most ASBs and rode with the kind of contact it looks like dressage riders are using- the saddlebred would probably say “No Way Jose!”
@Renea : I was responding directly to Tiffany who was ‘‘wondering’’ about dressage riders’ competence in their use of the double bridle. :rolleyes:
I’m not saying that Saddleseat is easy, I was merely pointing out that dressage has strict rules and is technically more complicated.
@Shakeytail : As I pointed out, most saddlebred riders are using bits that aren’t legal in dressage. No one in their right mind would intentionnaly pull on the type of bits used in saddleseat!
…which is why saddle seat riders use such a light touch on the curb rein.
Also, most self-respecting Saddlebreds wouldn’t put up with the crank and spank crowd.
[QUOTE=alibi_18;7747696]
@Renea : I was responding directly to Tiffany who was ‘‘wondering’’ about dressage riders’ competence in their use of the double bridle. :rolleyes:
I’m not saying that Saddleseat is easy, I was merely pointing out that dressage has strict rules and is technically more complicated.
@Shakeytail : As I pointed out, most saddlebred riders are using bits that aren’t legal in dressage. No one in their right mind would intentionnaly pull on the type of bits used in saddleseat![/QUOTE]
I wasn’t “wondering” about their competence in the least. I was simply making a comment that the shanks are not pulled nearly as far back as what is commonly seen in Dressage, and I said that because people usually think that Saddle Seat bits are harsh due to the longer shank. Of course if a rider pulled with the same amount of pressure as a dressage rider, the bit could be extremely harsh (depending on the mouthpiece and purchase). But since we barely touch the bit, and the shanks cannot even BE pulled back that far due to the shorter curb chain, it’s not an apples-to-apples comparison.
Dressage riders view Saddle Seat through a Dressage lens… it’s only natural to do so, but unfortunately it provides a very distorted view of how we ride and use the bridle. I was really just trying to head off an argument at the pass, since I’ve seen so many Saddle Seat threads devolve.
I agree with Red Mares. The eternal martingale is proof of the dumbing down of horsemanship instruction, IMO, and of less than competent trainers not knowing or caring how to put a good mouth on a horse, nor teaching riders to have good hands.
[QUOTE=Tiffani B;7748167]
I wasn’t “wondering” about their competence in the least. I was simply making a comment that the shanks are not pulled nearly as far back as what is commonly seen in Dressage, and I said that because people usually think that Saddle Seat bits are harsh due to the longer shank. Of course if a rider pulled with the same amount of pressure as a dressage rider, the bit could be extremely harsh (depending on the mouthpiece and purchase). But since we barely touch the bit, and the shanks cannot even BE pulled back that far due to the shorter curb chain, it’s not an apples-to-apples comparison.
Dressage riders view Saddle Seat through a Dressage lens… it’s only natural to do so, but unfortunately it provides a very distorted view of how we ride and use the bridle. I was really just trying to head off an argument at the pass, since I’ve seen so many Saddle Seat threads devolve.[/QUOTE]
Your comment irked me the first time around, the clarification does not make it better.
The angle on the dressage bit is the way it is because it’s made that way, not because it’s being yanked on. That is the zero setting when you hold the rains.
A SS bit is made different, so it also sits in the mouth different.
I do give you the last couple of decades though, doubles ought not be used in conjunction with leveraged cranked nosebands.
But I see that the SS world has it’s own decrease of horsemanship to deal with.
cheers.
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