Could you clarify this? Because I don’t quite understand what this alleged different angle is.
And I do see far too many people in dressage arenas yanking the curb reins.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7749506]
Could you clarify this? Because I don’t quite understand what this alleged different angle is.
And I do see far too many people in dressage arenas yanking the curb reins.[/QUOTE]
Gimme a few days to dig up my books. The angle when the curb rein is held is up to 45 degrees, but it’s wrong when the shank is in line with the mouth opening.
The angle should be controlled via the curb chain. The bit that does not reach the 33-45 degree mark is considered t be harsh, one that goes beyond is considered to fall through.
I do believe the SS curb has much shorter shanks above the mouth part, while dressage curbs are fairly equal.
And yes. I strongly dislike the current fashion to crank the mouth shut , then pull until they bite themselves in the chest.
[QUOTE=Alagirl;7749510]
Gimme a few days to dig up my books. The angle when the curb rein is held is up to 45 degrees, but it’s wrong when the shank is in line with the mouth opening.
The angle should be controlled via the curb chain. The bit that does not reach the 33-45 degree mark is considered t be harsh, one that goes beyond is considered to fall through.
I do believe the SS curb has much shorter shanks above the mouth part, while dressage curbs are fairly equal.
And yes. I strongly dislike the current fashion to crank the mouth shut , then pull until they bite themselves in the chest.[/QUOTE]
That sounds like most of the difference is in the adjustment of the curb chain.
Granted, most SS curbs have longer shanks than the average dressage curb, but I think there’s variation within either group wrt the length of the upper cheekpieces.
Alagirl, the section of the curb bit’s shank above the mouth piece is called the purchase. The longer the purchase the more pressure the bit will put on both the curb chain and the top of the poll. So a curb bit with short shanks overall, but a long purchase can be mote severe than a curb bit with a long shank but a short purchase, in that the bit with the longer purchase applies more curb chain and poll pressure.
Riding in a curb bit with a loose curb chain us not always the milder option either. The looser the curb chain the more pressure can be applied to the horse’s bars before the action of the bit on the curb chain and poll come into play.
Port style and height and thickness of the mouthpiece are all very subjective to the horse. A thick mullen mouth mouthpiece may seem mild, but to a horse that has a small mouth or needs more tongue relief it may not be a pleasant bit at all.
In the saddle seat world latex wrapped mouthpieces on curbs and curb chains are common. Shanks usually range between 5"-7", and can be fixed or swivel. The shanks can be straight of swept back like a western grazing bit, which are generally considered milder. There are an infinite number of mouthpieces. Perhaps the most common style of curb bit in the saddle seat world is something called the Tom Bass bit, a creation of the famous turn of the century American horseman who set out to develop a more humane curb bit. He refused to patent his design because he wanted his bit to be widely available so as many horses as possible could benefit from his new more humane design.
[QUOTE=Renae;7749611]
Alagirl, the section of the curb bit’s shank above the mouth piece is called the purchase. The longer the purchase the more pressure the bit will put on both the curb chain and the top of the poll. So a curb bit with short shanks overall, but a long purchase can be mote severe than a curb bit with a long shank but a short purchase, in that the bit with the longer purchase applies more curb chain and poll pressure.
Riding in a curb bit with a loose curb chain us not always the milder option either. The looser the curb chain the more pressure can be applied to the horse’s bars before the action of the bit on the curb chain and poll come into play.
Port style and height and thickness of the mouthpiece are all very subjective to the horse. A thick mullen mouth mouthpiece may seem mild, but to a horse that has a small mouth or needs more tongue relief it may not be a pleasant bit at all.
In the saddle seat world latex wrapped mouthpieces on curbs and curb chains are common. Shanks usually range between 5"-7", and can be fixed or swivel. The shanks can be straight of swept back like a western grazing bit, which are generally considered milder. There are an infinite number of mouthpieces. Perhaps the most common style of curb bit in the saddle seat world is something called the Tom Bass bit, a creation of the famous turn of the century American horseman who set out to develop a more humane curb bit. He refused to patent his design because he wanted his bit to be widely available so as many horses as possible could benefit from his new more humane design.[/QUOTE]
Thanks.
I am working from German books which are on average 30 to 80 years old.
You brought up a lot of good points I had not even thought about. (plus I have never been near a saddlebred, so heck…I have to go by pictures and theory)
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7749603]
but I think there’s variation within either group wrt the length of the upper cheekpieces.[/QUOTE]
I suppose so.
And of course port height…
but the big point I was going for, the 45 degree angle is near the ideal for the effectiveness of the bit, NOT a sign of cranked reins.
[QUOTE=Alagirl;7749695]
I suppose so.
And of course port height…
but the big point I was going for, the 45 degree angle is near the ideal for the effectiveness of the bit, NOT a sign of cranked reins.[/QUOTE]
According to whatever German author you are reading that is. In Spanish California style horsemanship the curb should be ridden like your reins are made of thread. American saddle seat horsemanship is heavily influenced by Baucher and Fillis, for example compare how Don Harris handles his reins to the Fillis method.
I’m having a bit of difficulty imagining 45 degrees as ideal, as well.
The first time I put a curb in my old stallion’s mouth was for a photo shoot–it was sewn into a native costume headstall, and was a very pretty antique western bit.
It was so nicely balanced, that the minute we put it on him, he arched his neck and put his face on the vertical, just standing there loose with the reins laying on his neck, and a very pleasant expression in his eye.
Gee, now I know what it feels like to have a thread hijacked!
Why don’t you hijackers go and start your own “curb angle” thread and leave the rest of us to discuss peaceably and intelligently the use of the double bridle in saddle-seat riding? :mad:
Thanks to those of you who responded to my original question. I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge with me! 
[QUOTE=Renae;7749741]
According to whatever German author you are reading that is. In Spanish California style horsemanship the curb should be ridden like your reins are made of thread. American saddle seat horsemanship is heavily influenced by Baucher and Fillis, for example compare how Don Harris handles his reins to the Fillis method.[/QUOTE]
I am not talking about California style bits.
I have currently no idea where I stuffed the books, but as I have to clean the junk room I call ‘office’ I will undoubtedly come across them.
It is really not that hard to imagine: The line of the lips is 0 degrees, perpendicular is 90, somewhere in the middle, closer to the mouth than the chin is the ideal spot.
I think one book is from 1935…so well before crank and spank. Like I said, German school.
And let’s not forget, that the original Baucher was rather harsh, and incidentally, his ‘slipper equitation’ is rare in print in modern days (at least as to my knowledge of 15 years ago, when I actually crossed internet paths with a gent claiming to be Racinet)
[QUOTE=RPM;7749788]
Gee, now I know what it feels like to have a thread hijacked!
Why don’t you hijackers go and start your own “curb angle” thread and leave the rest of us to discuss peaceably and intelligently the use of the double bridle in saddle-seat riding? :mad:
Thanks to those of you who responded to my original question. I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge with me! :)[/QUOTE]
Sheesh…sorry.
Regardless:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/Alagirl_photos/Double_0001.jpg
from this book:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/Alagirl_photos/Double_0002.jpg
The technichal explanation is in volume one though, which I don’t have.
I hope you trust the FN, if you don’t trust me.
[QUOTE=RPM;7749788]
Gee, now I know what it feels like to have a thread hijacked!
Why don’t you hijackers go and start your own “curb angle” thread and leave the rest of us to discuss peaceably and intelligently the use of the double bridle in saddle-seat riding? :mad:
Thanks to those of you who responded to my original question. I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge with me! :)[/QUOTE]
Goodness.
Are you serious?
Because here I was thinking that it was nice that there was a discussion going on that appeared to contain diverging views, and no one was accusing anyone else of being the Antichrist.
[QUOTE=Alagirl;7749795]
Sheesh…sorry.
Regardless:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/Alagirl_photos/Double_0001.jpg
from this book:
http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h96/Alagirl_photos/Double_0002.jpg
The technichal explanation is in volume one though, which I don’t have.
I hope you trust the FN, if you don’t trust me. :)[/QUOTE]
OK, now I understand where you’re coming from.
I was having trouble trying to figure out which two straight lines defined the angle.
Thanks for the diagrams.
Having had both ASB show horses, as well as owning and riding some lovely FEI horses, my first comment is that there is some fabulous information available on this thread.
However, essentially, dressage horses MUST demonstrate acceptance of the bit, and are ridden forward to the bit(s). There is a kind of elasticity in the bridle that does not exist in the ASB show world.
While in the show world, you bump a horse up, in the dressage world, you half halt a horse, and they must still have engagement, and be through. There is a consistency of contact.
In the show horse world, a vertical neckset is the grail- the front of a horses neck MUST be perpendicular to the ground, in order for the horse to be successful at the highest levels. They must also turn over at the poll, meaning that the plane of their face (head) must also be perpendicular to the ground.
Dressage horses are trained to stretch forward into contact, and a vertical neckset would also indicate a hollow back, generally speaking, and be unacceptable.
Dressage horses bits are controlled and regulated (and checked!). Not so in show horses. Everything from a smooth Tom Thumb snaffle, to bicycle chain bits are permitted, on show horses. Curb chains are generally much tighter on a show horses bridle, which accounts for the difference in angle. Cavesons on show horses bridles can have chains sewn in to help keep a horses mouth closed.
Tongue ties are permitted in show horses, and are often employed. They are not permitted in dressage horses. Horses who tend to back out of their bridles, due to lack of acceptance, will put their tongue over a bit. Dressage trainers, riders, etc. must learn to create acceptance in order to avoid this.
Just some additional information. I dislike it when ASB people make an attempt to dance around critical issues in the public perception of the breed. Much of the negative view is earned.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7749833]
OK, now I understand where you’re coming from.
I was having trouble trying to figure out which two straight lines defined the angle.
Thanks for the diagrams.[/QUOTE]
My pleasure.
I have been juggling a few things, being a little light on the lingo to cnvey my thoughts.
[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7749781]
It was so nicely balanced, that the minute we put it on him, he arched his neck and put his face on the vertical, just standing there loose with the reins laying on his neck, and a very pleasant expression in his eye.[/QUOTE]
My horse, who I generally ride in a single rein snaffle, wears a double like that. When we’re doing bridle work, I’ll sometimes let him wear the double without reins, or with the reins hanging so he can mouth it. When he feels the balance of the curb in his mouth he automatically raises his neck and shoulders and puts his face at the vertical. He works completely differently with a double even without rider influence.
[QUOTE=RPM;7749788]
Gee, now I know what it feels like to have a thread hijacked!
Why don’t you hijackers go and start your own “curb angle” thread and leave the rest of us to discuss peaceably and intelligently the use of the double bridle in saddle-seat riding? :mad:
Thanks to those of you who responded to my original question. I really appreciate your sharing your knowledge with me! :)[/QUOTE]
I think this is a great discussion that you can learn a lot from. Not all of it may be related to your original question, but it is related to the curb bit and double bridle. Just relax and read through… you’ll learn a lot from these people.
[QUOTE=SmartAlex;7750035]
My horse, who I generally ride in a single rein snaffle, wears a double like that. When we’re doing bridle work, I’ll sometimes let him wear the double without reins, or with the reins hanging so he can mouth it. When he feels the balance of the curb in his mouth he automatically raises his neck and shoulders and puts his face at the vertical. He works completely differently with a double even without rider influence.[/QUOTE]
And that’s how you know you have the right bits in his mouth! LOL
I’m a firm believer in “the horse must wear his snaffle” before ever introducing a curb. If you set a good foundation, the full bridle isn’t a big deal for most horses to get used to (although it does take time teaching them the finer points of wearing one).
[QUOTE=sdlbredfan;7749478]
I agree with Red Mares. The eternal martingale is proof of the dumbing down of horsemanship instruction, IMO, and of less than competent trainers not knowing or caring how to put a good mouth on a horse, nor teaching riders to have good hands.[/QUOTE]
One of my most frustrating experiences was showing a school horse. I’d been riding on & off for 20+ years. 3 weeks before the show, I rode the old man in a full bridle for the first time. I had 3 trips to relearn how to ride the horse before showing him.
It was so completely stupid. The horse was 15+ BTDT show horse and had worn a full bridle for years. I was experienced riding with a full bridle (I refused to ride my old mare without one; she’d run off in a snaffle) & have pretty decent hands. Instead of fine-tuning the week or two before the show; I was getting used to a significantly different ride.
Maybe this was why most of the ribbons earned by the barn riders were yellow, pink, green or brown?
[QUOTE=red mares;7750351]
One of my most frustrating experiences was showing a school horse. I’d been riding on & off for 20+ years. 3 weeks before the show, I rode the old man in a full bridle for the first time. I had 3 trips to relearn how to ride the horse before showing him.
It was so completely stupid. The horse was 15+ BTDT show horse and had worn a full bridle for years. I was experienced riding with a full bridle (I refused to ride my old mare without one; she’d run off in a snaffle) & have pretty decent hands. Instead of fine-tuning the week or two before the show; I was getting used to a significantly different ride.
Maybe this was why most of the ribbons earned by the barn riders were yellow, pink, green or brown?[/QUOTE]
There are a lot of riders in a lot of seats that don’t ever use a full bridle, even though it’s acceptable for their discipline. I wonder where/when/why it became “odd” to use a full bridle and “normal” to go in just a snaffle. So many old time pics of casual riders, whether jumping or trail riding, are in a double bridle. Nowadays - not so much.
