The Use of Double Bridles in Saddle-Seat Riding

[RPM]

[QUOTE=NBChoice;7750090]
I think this is a great discussion that you can learn a lot from. Not all of it may be related to your original question, but it is related to the curb bit and double bridle. Just relax and read through… you’ll learn a lot from these people.[/QUOTE]

It is now a discussion that has nothing to do with my original question because it was hijacked by people who should have started a spin-off thread of their own. I don’t need you to tell me to relax and read … my original question has been answered and I don’t give a f*@# about curb angles.

[Ghazzu]

Why? is relatively easy, I think–too many people want to hop on and show immediately, without developing the seat and hands and finesse needed to use a double.
(And it also requires a trainer capable of educating the horse. Fewer of those around, as well.)

[Tiffani_B]

That’s the joy of COTH. Threads morph and take on lives of their own.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=RPM;7750470]
It is now a discussion that has nothing to do with my original question because it was hijacked by people who should have started a spin-off thread of their own. I don’t need you to tell me to relax and read … my original question has been answered and I don’t give a f*@# about curb angles.[/QUOTE]

Now lets have a spin-off about this lovely post…

However, what the one poster wrote was simply not correct. Full Stop.

And in continuance of that, ASB Stars put together a wonderful, comprehensive summary.

[Ghazzu]

Maybe we can take up a collection and send the OP a bucket of Moody Mare to sprinkle on her cereal.

[Ghazzu]

[QUOTE=RPM;7750470]
It is now a discussion that has nothing to do with my original question because it was hijacked by people who should have started a spin-off thread of their own. I don’t need you to tell me to relax and read … my original question has been answered and I don’t give a f*@# about curb angles.[/QUOTE]

Then quit reading.
Or stay tense and crabby about it.
Your choice.
I guess no one ever explained to you the way the interwebz work.
Thread drift is a fact of life.

[ReSomething]

[QUOTE=Ghazzu;7750473]
Why? is relatively easy, I think–too many people want to hop on and show immediately, without developing the seat and hands and finesse needed to use a double.
(And it also requires a trainer capable of educating the horse. Fewer of those around, as well.)[/QUOTE]

Is that something that clients want - to hop on and show - or is it a model that pays the trainer’s bills the best?

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=ReSomething;7750574]
Is that something that clients want - to hop on and show - or is it a model that pays the trainer’s bills the best?[/QUOTE]

I am afraid it has been a growing business model in the past decades, as less and less people have the opportunity to follow their horse from cradle to the ring and have little concept of what it takes to get to and stay at the top.
Add to that a dash of instant gratification…bam…

[NBChoice]

[QUOTE=RPM;7750470]
It is now a discussion that has nothing to do with my original question because it was hijacked by people who should have started a spin-off thread of their own. I don’t need you to tell me to relax and read … my original question has been answered and I don’t give a f*@# about curb angles.[/QUOTE]

Well then… :rolleyes:

[SmartAlex]

[QUOTE=Tiffani B;7750432]
I wonder where/when/why it became “odd” to use a full bridle and “normal” to go in just a snaffle. So many old time pics of casual riders, whether jumping or trail riding, are in a double bridle. Nowadays - not so much.[/QUOTE]

I know, up until the 50s almost every photo of an english style riding horse, had a double bridle and a roached mane. Field hunters and show hunters also wore doubles. Now there are more bitting options and more people with limited time to devote to riding.

I love a double. It took me a long time to wean myself off of 4 reins. My horse happens to prefer and work well in a snaffle and that’s fine but there is still nothing that compares to the finesse and feel of an educated horse in a double bridle.

[KellyG]

[QUOTE=SmartAlex;7750660]

I love a double. It took me a long time to wean myself off of 4 reins. My horse happens to prefer and work well in a snaffle and that’s fine but there is still nothing that compares to the finesse and feel of an educated horse in a double bridle.[/QUOTE]

This! In spades!

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=ReSomething;7750574]
Is that something that clients want - to hop on and show - or is it a model that pays the trainer’s bills the best?[/QUOTE]

To be fair, the trainers are simply trying to make a living. However, the reality is that at any show, if you are showing in the ASB world, and you want to put someone in the ring in a regular division, they need to be able to ride with a full bridle. Skill? Well…

If they can keep one leg on each side of the horse, and pay the bills to get themselves on a horse ($$$$), in the proper attire ($$$), and to the horse show ($$$), with their trainer ($$$) they are keeping day money coming in for that trainer.

This model only varies a bit in other seats, but generally speaking, the ASB Saddle Seat world is fairly pricey, even at the ground floor. And it ramps up, pretty quickly.

[red_mares]

[QUOTE=ASB Stars;7751280]
To be fair, the trainers are simply trying to make a living. However, the reality is that at any show, if you are showing in the ASB world, and you want to put someone in the ring in a regular division, they need to be able to ride with a full bridle. Skill? Well…

If they can keep one leg on each side of the horse, and pay the bills to get themselves on a horse ($$$$), in the proper attire ($$$), and to the horse show ($$$), with their trainer ($$$) they are keeping day money coming in for that trainer.

This model only varies a bit in other seats, but generally speaking, the ASB Saddle Seat world is fairly pricey, even at the ground floor. And it ramps up, pretty quickly.[/QUOTE]

I would argue that the saddle seat world is actually pretty cheap; they just THINK it’s pricy.

When I first saw a bridle thread on the H/J forum I almost choked - $200+ for a SNAFFLE bridle? I paid less than that for a good full bridle. Saddles at $5K+? A top of the line, new Shively is only $3500. $100 saddle pads - you going to have to look hard to find one in a saddlebred barn.

Saddlesuits are expensive, I will give you that. That’s offset a bit by paddock/jod boots in lieu of $400 tall boots. No pricy GR8’s either.

The horses aren’t cheap, but they aren’t that expensive either. Comparing the cost of an honest Louisville horse to top jumper or hunter - I’d rather have what the H/J cost.

I’ve not got a problem with trainers just getting a horse or rider in the ring. Truth be told, a lot of the riders back in the day weren’t much better than what they are now. The typical amateur rider in a gaited class was a middle aged, successful businessman. A successful businessman, then or now, is not spending 20 hours a week at a barn riding.

I do have a problem with the perception that riding with a full bridle is a skill that is beyond most riders. It’s not. My childhood riding was sporadic at best, and I managed to learn. I’m not even that coordinated. It takes some practice, like anything else. Seems like the first reaction if often “Oh, I could never do that!”

Like other disciplines, I think the quality of instruction has declined over the last few decades. That’s mostly just due to their being fewer barns/horses out there. The old guys I know were riding 30+ horses a day as young pros. There aren’t that many barns today that are producing that many horses. The gal that works in my barn is a good kid, nice rider, but gets 15 rides tops daily. There’s no way she can get the same level of knowledge with volume.

Darn, I didn’t mean to write a novel.

[ASB_Stars]

[QUOTE=red mares;7752744]
I would argue that the saddle seat world is actually pretty cheap; they just THINK it’s pricy.

When I first saw a bridle thread on the H/J forum I almost choked - $200+ for a SNAFFLE bridle? I paid less than that for a good full bridle. Saddles at $5K+? A top of the line, new Shively is only $3500. $100 saddle pads - you going to have to look hard to find one in a saddlebred barn.

Saddlesuits are expensive, I will give you that. That’s offset a bit by paddock/jod boots in lieu of $400 tall boots. No pricy GR8’s either.

The horses aren’t cheap, but they aren’t that expensive either. Comparing the cost of an honest Louisville horse to top jumper or hunter - I’d rather have what the H/J cost.

I’ve not got a problem with trainers just getting a horse or rider in the ring. Truth be told, a lot of the riders back in the day weren’t much better than what they are now. The typical amateur rider in a gaited class was a middle aged, successful businessman. A successful businessman, then or now, is not spending 20 hours a week at a barn riding.

I do have a problem with the perception that riding with a full bridle is a skill that is beyond most riders. It’s not. My childhood riding was sporadic at best, and I managed to learn. I’m not even that coordinated. It takes some practice, like anything else. Seems like the first reaction if often “Oh, I could never do that!”

Like other disciplines, I think the quality of instruction has declined over the last few decades. That’s mostly just due to their being fewer barns/horses out there. The old guys I know were riding 30+ horses a day as young pros. There aren’t that many barns today that are producing that many horses. The gal that works in my barn is a good kid, nice rider, but gets 15 rides tops daily. There’s no way she can get the same level of knowledge with volume.

Darn, I didn’t mean to write a novel.[/QUOTE]

I think at the entry level- just started out- the disciplines are comparable. It is when you get to the mid range- where you start taking a trainer to the show with you- that it gets expensive. You can do the hunter jumper thing at the recognized level in this area- and this area is WAY competitive, and not have to take a trainer. By the time you get to the mid-range in SS, for example, you are doing overnight shows, and you need a groom, and a trainer, and you take on those expenses.

This past Labor Day weekend, for example, we had a HUGE hunter/jumper show at one of the local venues. Ship in, ship out, daily- no stalls. Your whole division is done in a day- and you are out. A comparable SS show would require overnight stabling, as the horses would have a qualifier, and then a championship, and not on the same day.

The only people paying 5K for a saddle are either ego driven, or showing at the top levels. Used saddles for hunt seat can be had for 1K, for an excellent saddle, and the best selling saddle in the dressage world is still the Wintec Isabel- at around 1K.

[ReSomething]

My opinion, for what it’s worth, is that dressage has a huge emphasis on snaffle first and the double requiring a lot of education on the part of horse and rider.

You’ll note that the Pelham and Kimblewicke used to get used a lot more and now they are pretty much only seen in HUS, or the hunt field, the current hunter “tradition” is a D ring snaffle (but it could be a mikmar ported mouthpiece) and if you go to the jumper arena anything goes.

At any rate I sort of think that the dressage world has put a stamp on the double, but then again we rode with two reins and a training martingale and I can’t say why we didn’t just use the proper double bridle - less chance to mis cue with the martingale? Easier to bridle without that curb stuff to take care of and the two bits? Easier to clean?

[ReSomething]

Lol, the biggest difference I found in cost of ss vs H/J was the makeup kit! Foundation, blush, eye makeup, mascara and lipstick, Frozen Stiff hairspray, a bazillion hair clips and hair nets, solitaire earrings, tie tacks, number pins, and there’s more that I’ve forgotten I’m sure.

A pretty girl on a pretty horse - and the horses know it too - the old guy knows how to pose for a camera, knows what it is, what he did to deserve that spot. He’s not a horse that was happy thrown out in a field.

It’s a discipline, like parts of the Western world, that likes its bling, but in a “tastefully understated” sort of way. Tongue in cheek that, I’ve seen whips with custom handles at over $200 a pop - either sterling handles or hand turned walnut or other fine woods.

[Tiffani_B]

I disagree that other disciplines are cheaper. The H/J barns I rode at charged 3X the price for a lesson than the ASB barns did, and BOARD (not board plus training, just board) was about $500 MORE than the local ASB trainers charged for full board and training. They never did any “one day” shows - even the smaller, entry level shows were multiple day affairs. I was told to expect to pay upwards of $3000 for one of those shows, to SHARE a horse, and go in two classes. I can send my Saddlebred to a week long show with a trainer and not pay even half that.

Maybe it is the region, but everyone I’ve talked to in the Dressage and H/J worlds describes prices that are so far beyond anything I’ve ever heard about in the ASB world.

And to ReSomething’s point about “the Pelham and Kimblewicke used to get used a lot more and now they are pretty much only seen in HUS, or the hunt field” that is true - and whenever someone uses a Pelham, kimberwicke, or double bridle, the exclamations of “that horse needs more schooling” or “you need a trainer” is pretty funny. So many people assume that if a horse is wearing something other than a plain snaffle, that something is wrong with it. When did this opinion get started? I can think of a dozen reasons why the rider or the horse might prefer a curb-type bridle over a snaffle, none of which have anything to do with the horse being out of control/strong/etc.

[ASB_Stars]

No idea what prices are in your area, but in this area- which is HUGE for hunters/jumpers, as well as dressage, your numbers would be way high for the entry level experience I described.

Snaffles became the standard in the hunter rings in the 80’s, IIRC, and, of course, have always been required in the dressage ring, at the lower levels.

Riding in a snaffle, alone, without any kind of martingale, etc. requires you to ride from your leg to your hand, in order to keep a horse round. Having a curb is handy, but one of the reasons a full bridle is not permitted until later in a dressage horses training is to ensure that they are correct, and not allow that curb influence to cheat a nose down.

[ReSomething]

Sooo are we saying then that the hunter ring is no longer educating it’s horses (and riders) to the extent that they can be ridden in a double correctly? Which is why people think a horse with a little curb is badly trained when it should really mean more accepting and better trained (educated)?

And the ss world retains the double for “looks”? Because round was never a goal in ss, head up! with the neck vertical and a bend at the poll was what we were wanting.

I’m trying to phrase this without seeming prejudicial and it’s hard - but back in the day, let’s say 60’s or before, were there more differences between disciplines or fewer? I keep thinking that the Army and cavalry had a large homogenizing influence and by the 60’s the instructors were passing, and then the disciplines began to emerge as more separate and distinct. Eventing is somewhere in the middle as the last vestige of the Army all-around competitions, the Olympic 3 day events of the 30’s.

[Alagirl]

[QUOTE=ReSomething;7752966]
Sooo are we saying then that the hunter ring is no longer educating it’s horses (and riders) to the extent that they can be ridden in a double correctly? Which is why people think a horse with a little curb is badly trained when it should really mean more accepting and better trained (educated)?

And the ss world retains the double for “looks”? Because round was never a goal in ss, head up! with the neck vertical and a bend at the poll was what we were wanting.

I’m trying to phrase this without seeming prejudicial and it’s hard - but back in the day, let’s say 60’s or before, were there more differences between disciplines or fewer? I keep thinking that the Army and cavalry had a large homogenizing influence and by the 60’s the instructors were passing, and then the disciplines began to emerge as more separate and distinct. Eventing is somewhere in the middle as the last vestige of the Army all-around competitions, the Olympic 3 day events of the 30’s.[/QUOTE]

I think you hit the nail on the head. The downfall I think started probably after army and farming did away with real horsepower (around the 60s) and more and more people from other backgrounds entered the sport.

The old instructors are dieing out, the young ones just don’t have the level of necessity in good horsemanship that somebody who’s life and livelyhood depended on his cooperation with a horse.