Thinking Outside the Box - Eventing Stallions

I am a new poster, but have read a number of the very helpful Forum discussions about breeding for event horses in the United States, which I agree is an approach that has been too-long neglected. My partner and I are both eventers (she at the upper levels, me at the lower ones) who have joined the ranks of those who are trying to improve eventing breeding in the U.S., and who are trying to produce a horse with the talent and soundness to compete, hopefully, at the international level (one must have a BHAG (“big hairy audacious goal”)), or at the very least, horses that can break through the Preliminary/Intermediate barrier and compete at the CCI level.

We are of the view that in the future an upper level event horse will still need to have a majority of Thoroughbred blood in the pedigree, even as “full” or mostly-warmbloods have made some inroads into the sport and the CIC format has become more prevalent. It is also clear that the British are years ahead of us in selective breeding for eventing, a view that should be no surprise to readers of this Forum. For that reason, we have initially focused on established eventing stallions from the U.K. or Ireland that have a record of producing upper level eventers – Jumbo, Fleetwater Opposition, Catherston Dazzler, and the Welton stallions. The problem with these sires is that they are either dead or retired and their semen is either unavailable or hard to get (anyone know if emco will have Jumbo, FO, or CD in 2011?), and their intact offspring are still too young for us to know if they will be similar producers (although we are looking at Laurel (a Stan the Man xx son (registered Trakehner), and Future Illusion, a Fleetwater Opposition son).

The success of Cavlier Royale as an eventing sire caused us to ask ourselves why stallions from continental studbooks focusing on the jumpers (principally Holsteiner, BWP, and KWPN) have not made further inroads into eventing breeding. I recognize that some jumper stallions have hit the USEF and international leaderboards for eventing sires, but it seems to happen less often than one might expect, even taking into account that breeders can usually get higher dollars (or euros) for “jumper” or “dressage” foals out of blooded mares. My partner has a young horse by a Fuerst Gotthard son out of a Thoroughbred mare who is very talented and (cross fingers!) should be able to progress through the levels; his quality has influenced our thinking as well.

With that big windup (are you still with me?), we have a quality Thoroughbred mare that we intend to breed this spring for a 2012 foal. We look to produce an eventing prospect, ideally with at least 60-80% Thoroughbred blood in the pedigree. The mare is 16 hands and well conformed for eventing. She has an uphill build, is very proportional, has straight legs, and has surprisingly good feet. She is strongly coupled behind with a very nice hindquarter (gotta have the engine) and has a relatively short back (but not too short). If I have to nitpick, her neck/wither connection could be better (needs to be set a little higher), and I would like to see the sire improve her topline and add some leg. She moves very well with nice elasticity through the shoulder and with some suspension at the trot, but she does not have “warmblood”-type expression; very nice canter and a light gallop. She’s been approved by the GOV and is in their main mare book. She’s by a son of Pleasant Colony, and has Nasrullah and Double Jay multiple times in her pedigree, along with some other “names”. She’s pretty quiet and not spooky.

Putting aside the established British/Irish stallions for a moment, and focusing on the continental jumper lines, which sire would you use to produce a 3/4 bred event prospect? We have been focusing on Cor de la Bryere offspring, not only because of his success and influence, but also because Corde was 5/8 Thoroughbred, or thereabouts. It has also become apparent that the Trakehner studbook has been pretty successful at producing eventing progeny (Windfall and Fleetwater Opposition are examples), sometimes despite the lack of up-close blood in the pedigree, so we are looking at those lines as well.

Candidates thus far are Corland, Contendro I, and Stilletto, some other Contender sons, and part-bred Trakehner offspring like Laurel and Future Illusion. Any additional thoughts on potential sires or on what I have written above would be much appreciated. If you are still here, thanks for reading this long post!!!

You might look at Riverman at Hilltop Farm. I also think an IDSH is a great horse for eventing. Bradenburgs Windstar at Windchase Farm - that will give you the 3/4 TB blood you want and a proven producer of UL horses. Another nice horse is Formula One

I chose the Cor son Hilltop Cordini to go with my RID in hopes of getting a great jumper/eventer and now I am waiting on a cross with Gatsby and my RIDSH mare. Gatsby has caught the eye of some top eventers and have some youngsters that are just starting careers - might be worth checking out.

Cicera’s Icewater, himself about 40% blood.

There was a now deceased Holsteiner Stallion Sabotage that produced several advanced level eventers in the U.S. Most of his offspring went to the upper level jumper ring in the U.S. because of the higher value. Sabotage does have a very nice Holsteiner approved Holsteiner/TB cross son by the name of Stealth who I think would be fabulous for producing eventers. He was doing very well in the jumpers and dressage before being injured in an accident (broken jaw) and retired. I don’t know what is happening with Stealth now and I tried at one point to get his owner to market him to eventers. I think this is a great opportunity being wasted…

This stallion is young and not well promoted but his pedigree screams eventer
http://www.irishdraught.com/horses/profile.php?unid=3376

Sea Crest and Caro are both behind many eventers

Look at Coromino – you get the Corde and Ramiro blood in a very modern wb stallion. I’ve had one and sold a mare in foal to him to a client, who is also super nice. Both foals are o/o TB mares that were GOV/MMB. What impresses me about him is the consistency in his produce, very elastic movers with fabulous canters. Under saddle, my colt was a breeze to start and super soft and attentive to the aids, truly fun to ride/train. That big canter stride would certainly work well for an eventer and that nice movement and good brain with the jumping blood should be a plus as well. He is not a heavy type and doesn’t produce it, which is also an asset.
He’s done jumpers and dressage with success. I think Navarone is also alot like that.
PennyG

If you want a spectacular foal you might consider Avebury WF; he is placing at prelim right now and getting ready to move up. He is also schooling Prix St. Georges and more, as well as piaffe and passage. He comes from a long line of top event and dressage horses.

http://ellie-watermarkfarmhappenings.blogspot.com/

I’d look at a few Trakehners-

TziganePb
Hannibal- the British one
Brioni
Grand Prix
Zauberruf
StilettoPs

You could look at the TB A fine Romance based in Canada or imported Semen by recent yong horse eventing word champion Mighty Magic (By Mythens xx - Heraldik xx out of a Holstein mare).

If you could possibly get your hands on some Heraldik xx frozen you’d almost guarantee yourself an UL eventer! :slight_smile:

You said thinking outside the box - and this is pretty outside the box.
He’s never been thought of as an eventing stallion, because he’s been shown in the H/Js but I’d LOVE to see a nice TB mare bred to Lotus T for the purpose of eventing.

Lotus is registered/approved AHHA but is actually 5/8 TB and his babies can JUMP. He’s been crossed on lots of TBs but the babies have generally been bred by the H/J market, for the H/J market.

I don’t think that his offspring will have any problem doing the job - I just think that no one has gone that direction before, and people are very hesitant to go in a new direction, step outside the box, etc. I watched a daughter of his (out of a TB mare) this fall that was essentially pulled out of a field (only being ridden by a kid) and a pro rider hopped up and proceeded to take her over a course of 5’6 jumps.

She had never seen anything that big (went to a Jr rider as a baby) but she just said okay and hopped around like it was nothing. Most are also nice movers and tall.

My stallion crush of the month though is Royaldik (in spite of the unfortunate name) but he is not in the US.

I’m considering him for a 3/4 sis to Lotus.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/royaldik

If you want a Heradik son, look at Hunter. He is based in CA.

[QUOTE=JWB;5197125]
My stallion crush of the month though is Royaldik (in spite of the unfortunate name) but he is not in the US.

I’m considering him for a 3/4 sis to Lotus.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/royaldik[/QUOTE]

Have you ever seen that one in person ?!

Lotus T

[QUOTE=JWB;5197115]
You said thinking outside the box - and this is pretty outside the box.
He’s never been thought of as an eventing stallion, because he’s been shown in the H/Js but I’d LOVE to see a nice TB mare bred to Lotus T for the purpose of eventing.[/QUOTE]

First, thanks everyone for responding. I was hoping to get a good discussion going.

As for Lotus T, I have met Andras and saw a couple of Lotus T babies at the Holsteiner inspection in Georgia a couple of years ago. He is more than 1/2 TB. Andras mentioned that he hoped that folks would use his stallion for eventing breeding. Very nice foals, from what I saw.

Anyone have thoughts about Corland? I read on another post here that the VDL stallion manager believed that he would make a good eventing sire, in part because of the quality of his gallop.

Keep it going!

Amiro Z? He’s reg Zangersheide with a lot of blood. He’d add the WB qualities you’re looking for without taking away the good TB qualities.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/sirepages.htm?id=10434635&z=7WOdgh

Or maybe Jaguar Mail? Nice, nice TB sport lines, and he’s producing eventers.

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/sirepages.htm?id=10350658

If you are really thinking outside the box, you may want to consider Nevada. Nevada has several youngsters doing well Eventing thru Training Level. Only time will tell if they will continue climbing the levels.

USEA website results for his offspring would place him in the top 10 (at one point 5th) on the eventing sire list, but they are not recorded, so only results are listed, not USEF points.

Their dressage scores are also almost always in the top few.

Photos of those offspring below.

http://www.hoofclix.com/Pine-Top-Farm/2010-10-10-USEA-Horse-Trial/KelseyHoinessBenz111/14103112_cBz4o#1042951125_NNHi2

Nevada is just over 50% TB, plus Dutch lines including several top jumper lines.

Nevada’s paternal grand sire Aram is by Nimmerdor - always a top jumper sire. Aram sired the SJ Olympic Individual Gold Medalist deSjiem.

Nevada’s paternal grand mother was sired by the International Show Jumper Jasper (aka Little One)

Nevada’s sire’s pedigree also includes Porter, the maternal grandsire of Olivier - Elizabeth Austin’s International GP dressage horse.

His maternal grandsire on one side is the sire of Taxateur. Taxateur was very successful in dressage at GP level, and won the Young rider Championship. He also sired both GP Jumpers, and dressage horses.

Nevada’s dam’s pedigree also includes Hayhook - Sire of Idle Dice.

Nevada is also siring dressage horses and jumpers, as well as Hunters. One of his offspring is #1 for 2010 VHSA Working Hunter.

The 1st, 2nd, and 4th horses pictured, as well as the one on the link, are out of TB mares, so over 75% TB. #3 is out of a Connemara mare. #5 is out of a Warmblood mare.

Neville at DRPC HT 4.JPG

Gracie3 web.jpg

Maguire_Event_web.jpg

Flicka 2.jpg

Ukiah Fair Hill 1.JPG

I’m a Windfall fan, hands down.

Well, if it’s outside the box you want, how about a jumper like Sir Shutterfly?

My good friend Silene White just won the USEA Future Event Horse Grand Championship with her two year old Sir Shutterfly filly, Shutterfly’s Buzz.
http://www.useventing.com/

I love this filly and would certainly consider Sir Shutterfly if I wanted to put more jump in a horse. Buzz has a habit of jumping out of her pasture over the six foot gate, but she’s also got the calmest, best attitude going – not to mention phenomenal dressage gaits.

[QUOTE=alexandra;5197186]
Have you ever seen that one in person ?![/QUOTE]

Only when he was a youngster (Lived in Europe 2001-2003). He looked TREMENDOUSLY promising then, although I sort of “forgot” about him once I came back home.

Why? Is there something I should know about?