[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;5209989]
Indie? That is another lovely one. Kelli certainly has a great eye. (and Jennie has a nice nice line up of horses now—good for her!)[/QUOTE]
Yes. Indie.
I think (but i’ll deny it if anyone asks! lol) that kelli has some connections through the honorable Carl Bouc. in Europe that provide some good pipelines of horses. Of course, kelli herself does a great job producing them…
Again Irish Draughts
I had hoped that when the computer ate my response to JER and shut down that when I got back someone would have listed the half Irish Draughts successfully winning in the short form. Lenamore is by an RID stallion Seacrest who is also the sire of Cruising and out of a TB mare of French and Britsh breeding…just won Burghley at 17 y and is also a smaller horse. In the US we have Tipperary Liadhnan. Paddy is by the RID stallion Fast Silver and out of a 1/4 Irish Draught I’m A Star daughter bred by the Corbetts in Ireland…he is superb at dressage AND cross country. To toss off that a half bred can’t do **** is clearly not true yet it is laid down like “everyone knows” you can’t produce a upper level horses crossed on a purebred…the evidence says differently.
Are there half breds that can’t…sure…but there are Holsteiners who can’t and Hanoverians who can’t and TBs who can’t too.
It is better to ask what trade offs occur when breeding to Irish Draughts for eventing. First, modern Irish Draughts are not really that huge…most are a percentage of TBs already just as SF and Traks and everything else. Some more some less. The mass of Irish Draughts today are just not that big. For me that is sad as I love the traditional Irish Draught but there just aren’t very many today. There are nearly NO Irish Draught stallions in Ireland with even 10 inches of bone. A majority of the purebred Irish Draught stallions available today should be considered more as 1/2 breds in the mix. Jumbo is probably 1/2 Irish Draught and is considerably more substantial than many purebred stallions.
2nd the major asset from Irish Draughts is the legendary 5th leg to get everyone out of trouble…situational awareness…body awareness. They know where their feet are and have the strength of muscle out of a situation they somehow find themselves in. I will agree that you want to find those Irish Draught who are quick footed and who have good heat tolerance and exercise tolerance. I have a Fast Silver mare and she and her purebred offspring are very capable as their relative Paddy is.
3rd the two mentioned above have held together a long time with long careers…Irish Draughts are tough and contribute toughness to the mix.
Irish Draughts are showing very well in dressage. What they miss in pure suspension they have in pure trainability and their gaits are quality and their canters are excellent their gallop is outstanding. Those out there with higher percentage Irish Draught are often at the front of the field after dressage. It is out of the box to consider purebred Irish Draughts to TB mares but it shouldn’t be, they have earned their place. PatO
Good post, Stolensilver. I agree with everything you’ve said. Even Jumbo hasn’t had a son who has made any mark on breeding, even though they have done well in stallion shows.
It almost looks as if the Jumbo line is also in danger of dying out; and if it weren’t for Louella, Primitive Rising would be trouble.
I think what you’re talking about might be reflected in a French study’s conclusion that British and Irish eventing breeding is regressing compared to the Continentals. The Brits find good stallions and use them heavily for one generation, then move onto the next sensation. Early gelding is naturally implicated in the lack of stallions, but the Continental Europeans have more of a generational view of improvement.
[QUOTE=columbus;5210443]
I had hoped that when the computer ate my response to JER and shut down that when I got back someone would have listed the half Irish Draughts successfully winning in the short form. [/QUOTE]
Not sure what you’re getting at here but I’ve mentioned Lenamore and his breeding previously on this thread.
But AFAIK, Lenamore starts and ends the list of half-breds who’ve won at CCI**** in this century. Before that? I don’t know. Horton Point was a half-bred but that was the early 90s.
Ruth Edge rides a half-bred mare called Marsh Mayfly who IIRC has won at CCI*** and completed Burghley once, although all her other attempts at CCI**** ended with a letter. She is a very handsome mare, too.
I don’t know of any others winning at those levels. If you do, can you share their names with us?
I don’t think anyone is saying you ‘can’t produce an upper level horse crossed on a purebred.’ You can, but the truth is, there are not many half-breds at /*. Most horses at that level have more blood.
Also, with the exception of Lenamore, the traditional cross is the TB stallion on the Irish mare. Our mare base sets that equation up differently (like Lenamore, but he’s a rarity) so that you’d be crossing the RID on the TB mare.
I like Irish breeding but the mix of blood is important. (I’ve been saying for years that I’d like to steal Lenamore for myself as I’m sure he is perfect for me.) But I wouldn’t breed my own TB and almost-all-TB mares to full RIDs hoping for any more than a fun mare for the next gen of breeding.
But – since this is your area of expertise – could you give some examples of RID stallions that you think would produce top-level eventers when bred to TB mares?
[QUOTE=stolensilver;5210182]
Did you know that the most successful Trakehner sire of eventers ever, Fleetwater Opposition, has no Trakehner stallion son to follow in his footsteps? He’s never even had a stallion presented for grading and is barely used within the breed. Strange isn’t it?[/QUOTE]
Future Illusion is a Fleetwater Opposition son who is going to be offered in the United states this year. http://www.emcostallionservices.com/stallions/futureillusion.html
He is not a approved Trakehner stallion. I am not sure if he has been discussed on here before now. There are so many posts on here, but we have considered using him especailly because the fees are so low and we have not had a foal by our mare yet. It would give us an opportunity to see what she throws without spending a boat load to begin with. Thoughts?
[QUOTE=ashley1069;5210588]
Future Illusion is a Fleetwater Opposition son who is going to be offered in the United states this year. http://www.emcostallionservices.com/stallions/futureillusion.html
He is not a approved Trakehner stallion. I am not sure if he has been discussed on here before now. There are so many posts on here, but we have considered using him especailly because the fees are so low and we have not had a foal by our mare yet. It would give us an opportunity to see what she throws without spending a boat load to begin with. Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
Future Illusion’s owner breeder sometimes posts on this BB. She’s a very friendly person, the kind you shouldn’t hesitate to contact if you have questions or want to discuss breeding.
ashley, what are your goals in breeding your mare? What are you hoping to get? Are you looking for a UL horse for yourself? If so, what is your idea type? Are you looking for a pro-ride type or more of a packer? Are you hoping to build your own breeding program for the future? Does your mare have specific qualities you want to find in the young one? And also, what do you want to avoid?
McKinlaigh is 1/2 RID and 1/2 TB, but neither half is pure. Both his grandsires are TBs and both his granddams are RID, or so it seems. His tail female back of the 2nd dam is pretty much a mystery.
Idealy we would like to breed a upper level eventer. Definately more of the pro rider type…if it happen to be amateur friendly as well that would be a plus, but upper level talent is far more important for what we want. The mare I am refering to is the same mare Pergrine Farm metioned in his original post. She is an attractive OTTB and has many qualities that we like. However, we would like to improve her neck as well as her movement, although she does move well enough to be competitive. She is more of a compact type which I like but I would not mind a bit more length of leg. Ideally we would sell the horse after breaking and competing it a bit and I would do the competing until it sold. However if it happened to be a very good qualitity filly we would probably keep her and I would compete her as well as use her in a breeding program down the line. I grew up riding at breeding farm that bred many upper level eventers, but a lot of the horses where very difficult to train and they ended up hitting major road blocks and did not make it far. Trainability is very important to me. I do not mind a horse that spooks or is sometimes difficult as long as they are intellegent.
Was looking at the Welton site, and it mentions Bally Mar as a foal producer by Welton Double Cracker. I saw her at Rolex with KOC. Don’t remember anything at all about her, except that she was relatively small and one of less than a handful of mares at that event.
Looked up her breeding and she was 3/4 TB, tail female to Bally Cor. Her sire was a Hanoverian named Omar out of a TB dam. He was by Gambrinus who was by a Trak named Hessenstein. To me, that’s interesting breeding, but one that could only happen in the UK or the US where you do have TB mares on the bottom. You could come close with a Sire who is TB on top and WB on the bottom, but that wouldn’t be easy either, since most of that ilk are gelded in WB registries, since what they want is the half bred daughters to breed to their WB stallions.
The Irish, I think, would be able to produce either type of 3/4 TB. She’s been bred to Welton Double Cracker and that produce is currently eventing with KOC at training or thereabout as Bally’s Cracker. Per the USEF, he’s a 2005 model.
JER/viney, because the OP specifically asked about German-bred horses, what would your thoughts be on using something like Landfriese II on the OP’s mare? He’s got Ladykiller twice on top, and Marcio XX/Volkhorn XX on the bottom. Great jumping scores, great dressage scores, and apparently has some upper level eventers running around Europe. Consistently known for throwing leggy, good-moving/good-jumping horses with good brains.
[QUOTE=ashley1069;5210698]
Idealy we would like to breed a upper level eventer. Definately more of the pro rider type…if it happen to be amateur friendly as well that would be a plus, but upper level talent is far more important for what we want. The mare I am refering to is the same mare Pergrine Farm metioned in his original post. She is an attractive OTTB and has many qualities that we like. However, we would like to improve her neck as well as her movement, although she does move well enough to be competitive. She is more of a compact type which I like but I would not mind a bit more length of leg. Ideally we would sell the horse after breaking and competing it a bit and I would do the competing until it sold. However if it happened to be a very good qualitity filly we would probably keep her and I would compete her as well as use her in a breeding program down the line. I grew up riding at breeding farm that bred many upper level eventers, but a lot of the horses where very difficult to train and they ended up hitting major road blocks and did not make it far. Trainability is very important to me. I do not mind a horse that spooks or is sometimes difficult as long as they are intellegent.[/QUOTE]
Check out www.twingates.com and look at their stallion TziganePb
I can’t think of a better choice to add what your looking for and give you a horse with the trainability and potential to excel at the UL’s. Several of his sons and a daughter are now in training with **** riders and Olympian’s with an eye to being future Team horses.
Have we talked about Boyd Martin’s Remington XXV? He’s definitely a top event horse at the highest level, and he’s pure Hanoverian with heavily dressage line breeding. His sire is Rubenstein I and his damsire is Wenzel (1 ?). He has no TB close up at all. Is he just a fluke or is he one of those horses that is evidence that putting dressage blood into event horses can be a good strategy, per the French study?
Breeders need to think in terms of more than just the product of a single mating but, instead, of the next generations. Having an idea before you start of what you want to bring to the sons and daughters of the foal you are breeding today and actually planning for the next generation as you plan today’s breeding would seem a sound, but expensive, strategy.
We have great hopes for Avebury’s progress in eventing. We are also very proud to showcase our American Warmblood Registry licensed stallion. He is the combination of proven European warmblood and classic American thoroughbred lines. Made in the USA!
[QUOTE=wanderlust;5210967]
JER/viney, because the OP specifically asked about German-bred horses, what would your thoughts be on using something like Landfriese II on the OP’s mare? [/QUOTE]
He has some eventing offspring out there so I’d want to know how they galloped and what kind of mares they were out of. Also, I’d want to see what he produces out of TB mares (I saw one or two foals on the website but I’d want to see adults).
He’s a good type with a fair amount of blood, not too bulky in the body and his offspring seem much the same.
The one thing I like to be sure of, and you can’t tell this from photos, is that the stallion is what I’d call a real athlete. It’s one thing to be a nice horse who jumps when asked to jump and moves when asked to move but it’s something else – and something I want in an eventer – to be a horse that wants to do the job and likes the challenge. IMO, that’s the athleticism that an eventer needs.
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Just about everyone on this forum will disagree with you. I rarely waste the energy anymore
[QUOTE=carolprudm;5211530]
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Just about everyone on this forum will disagree with you. I rarely waste the energy anymore[/QUOTE]
I don’t think anyone discounts Irish horses at all. They are too well proved to be discounted. Probably, though, for the end product the ISH is a better choice.
[QUOTE=carolprudm;5211530]
Just about everyone on this forum will disagree with you. I rarely waste the energy anymore[/QUOTE]
In my previous post, I asked for examples of successful half-breds at top levels in eventing.
In this case, per PatO’s post, we’d be talking about TBs bred to full RIDs.
There would be less ‘disagreement’ if the numbers were substantial. Or at least substantiated.
Also, I asked for examples of full RIDs (stallions) who will consistently produce UL eventers when bred to TB mares. Can you give any?
No one has said that a half-bred ‘can’t do’ CCI****. It’s just that very few actually do it.
I apologize for the length of this, but wanted to keep it all together.
Somebody mentioned Hirtentanz. Seems to be able to reproduce his jump even out of mares that carry jump killers (nice example at NMS a week ago, out of a Tanzmeister (Caprimond) mare, horse could JUMP). However, offspring are heavy for Trakehner standards, nd I’ve seen a few out of purebred TBs now - not sure this is the type of horse we seek for the ULs in eventing. Formidable athlete, but for a different discipline IMHO.
I am very glad you figured out the Abdullah mystery. Thanks for that!
You see so few of Bukephalos’ kids in eventing because a) he didn’t have huge numbers of offspring and 2) he catered a lot to the Hunter market. With regards to Amiego and Abdullah as eventing sires - I value both, and would not hesitate using them on TB mares. Done many times, with a lot of success (and very good rideability). Amigo’s approved Trak son Octavio (dam by Meilenstein) evented at *** level and was approved based on his success as a sport horse. I have met a Hilton GS son at my friend’s farm in CA, this one out of a TB-free Pregelstrand daughter (Trak), and he was tall, very good type, very very good jump, honest mind, sold to an amateur who took him to her first event (Novice) within about a month of owning him, he’d hardly done or seen any xc and took home a blue right away. Super honest horse. Lacks the TB factor to run UL, but a really good sporthorse on all other accounts.
I’d like to pick up some of Stolensilver’s suggestions, just to add my 2 cents.
Other Trakehner stallions that may be worth looking at are Interconti. He’s not used much in Germany because he’s grey (they really have an issue with greys over there!) but he consistently throws outstanding stock. His son His Time was reserve champion at Neumunster last weekend and was widely regarded as the best stallion there.
Interconti has yet to produce one outstanding sport horse that is winning at any discipline. Sorry, LOVED His Time too, and I get the whole “he’s not breeding much” part of the equation. I personally value Interconti a lot due to his sire line, but a proven sport horse sire is something different. A premium stallion doesn’t really make a summer. The only one doing well right now is Zauberfürst, who is competing at M level dressage as a 5yr old. There is the approved grey Contis in the UK, dam by Michelangelo (Pasteur xx), who is supposedly with eventing riders, but I haven’t seen any hard proof of that yet. If you have any, please share (I really liekd him at his approval).
>>Yet more to consider are Songline, Herzog and Grafenstolz, all these Trakehner stallions won the 6yo Bundeschampionat in eventing in different years.
All of which are “genetic accidents”. Songline - I’ve seen too many Summertime kids that are very average jumpers to go near him for eventing breeding. Herzog? blank page. Graf is the only one that has actually produced ** horses (oldest age group available) and on TBs, I can see him work. He had two sons in NMS, one out of a Stan the Man xx, the other out of a super Balisto Z - both jumped well, the Balisto Z extra well, but both did not scream eventer.
>>If you really want to boost your mare’s jump you could use Hirtentanz. He is a lovely light framed stallion with an incredible jump and super temperament.
See above. If you want to boost your mare’s jump and don’t care if the foal is maybe a tad too heavy, there is NO alternative in the US to Horalas Pg. International show jumper with an outstanding record and offspring (more than one!) that are competing internationally as well.
Laurel - yes, interesting horse with a good record himself, offspring too young, but I’m sure we’ll see some in a few years.
Not sure if you’re in the US, but guess so. In which case I will throw in Tzigane big time (his 5yr old son Harry Houdini, out of a Münchhausen - Patricius xx Trakehner mother, just ran his second prelim ever at Galway last weekend, with Sara Mittleider, and came in 5th). Tzigane no longer lives in the US, but his frozen is very good quality. A bunch of info and images on his German website here: http://www.gestuet-majenfelderhof.de/index_e.html
Same event, CCI* division, won by the Windfall-son Project Runway. Windfall is always a good choice, especially for mares with blood and those that need jump. ANYTHING Habicht works for eventing - it’s really the best line out there, and has been for a long time. Dito Fleetwater Opposition. Unavailable approved Trakehner (lack of son), but plenty good in other books and Summersong would be my choice.
That said, the owner of Tzigane and myself most recently acquired the only registered FO daughter in the Trakehner stud book. She goes to Tzigane next year, and the year after that it’s my turn, which I am VERY much looking forward to.
She came with a colt at her side by Tycoon (the German one), who is a Sir Shostakovich xx grand son. That pedigree comes close to what I think a “modern” eventing pedigree should look like.
Sorry Stolensilver, hope I didn’t steal from you :-))
Since the Op had said, “putting aside the established British/Irish stallions for a moment” I focused more on Cicera’s Icewater (who I really hope gets used more) than on Cavalier Royale. But since CR has come up a lot anyway, I think this, “You could come close with a Sire who is TB on top and WB on the bottom, but that wouldn’t be easy either, since most of that ilk are gelded in WB registries, since what they want is the half bred daughters to breed to their WB stallions” from Viney is actually a part of why Cavalier Royale has been so successful for eventing.
CR has been the product, top and bottom, of infusions of xx or ox at almost every generation. Not just a selected line breed or a Landgraf/Cor de cross, but almost every generation top and bottom pulls in a great xx or ox sire.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/cavalier+royale
Cor de is from a tb sire, Rantzau. Lurioso is from the tb sire, Furioso. Landstrum is by Ladykiller xx and Ligustra’s dam pulls in ox from Ramzes. Colombo is Cottage Son xx and Aldato is Anblickxx. And yet – it was the Irish mare base that made him. Just like the Holsteiner mare base made his sire, Cor de.
One thing that this successive tb infusion brought to CR, genetically, was that if he was crossed on blood, he threw more type and blood than you would expect from looking at him. I found this to be a bit true with my Cicero x tb cross as well. So putting a wb on top is a different thing than putting a wb who has had generationally infused tb on top, imo.
I liked Landfriese as an outotbox choice for the OP for a couple of reasons, but one is the successive infusions. Landfriese isn’t as generationally infused with xx as CR, but there are a significant number of infusions in his pedigree.
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/landfriese
Plus, the OP was asking specifically about doing something for the neck. That is where something like Contendro comes in (with the heavy ox) but Landfriese, while having a lovely neck that isn’t at an extreme, also has xx lines like the linebred Ladykiller, where it is the xx that improves the neck.
And since the issue of mind has come up a couple of times, I have to say that I think a lot of the great event horses have been a bit quirky with a smidge of spook. I think the CR’s are known for being a bit quirky, aren’t they? And I remember one of Mike Plumb’s horses – maybe Better & Better? – where the horse got upset over what he was wearing, so he ended up having to wear the exact same windbreaker every time he showed up. That kind of hyperawareness can be a pita, but can also save everyone’s neck if the horse it comes with is a good enough athlete.
If that French study that recommends dressage blood has anything going for it, then one horse that might be interesting to watch in the future is this one (Blue Hors Rosoff)
http://www.bluehors.net/cms/index.php?idcat=60&changelang=2
He’s Blue Hors Romanov son out of a tb mare. Romanov is a Rubenstein grandson (and so he has Inschallah) and Romanov’s granddam, Ruling Action, is linebred on the tb Neckar and the anglo norman Condor, with some Trak from Absatz. Romanov’s damsire line is flat on the tb infusion, though. I’ve been looking at Romanov, but not from an eventing standpoint. Rosoff’s dam is the tb Miss Evergreen.
http://www.pedigreequery.com/miss+evergreen
And I’d still like to see Cicera’s Icewater and the US sires with Abdullah close up get their chances with some nice tb mares.
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