Thinking Outside the Box - Eventing Stallions

I didn’t see JER’s posts as attacking at all. Requesting evidence is not attacking.

No we don’t all have to like the same horses, people will disagree about what is too much up and down and what is not, and other details. But ignoring the facts that are out there is not wise.

Taking offense and stomping off when someone points out the facts to refute a statement is a missed learning opportunity. If you disagree offer facts to refute but to shoot the messenger for their apparent failure to sugar-coat the message does not make for productive discussion.

That’s not to say there is no place for lucky hunches in breeding. Many great horses are the result of just that. But I submit that you will be lucky more often if you combine your hunches with an evidence-based approach.

[QUOTE=ashley1069;5209739]
JER I sincerly apologize for saying anything offensive about you. I felt attacked and reacted harshly. I watched the video of your mare Dekorum a few days ago and she is lovely. Good luck with her in the future, I wish you much success.[/QUOTE]

Apology accepted.

Thank you for the nice words about my mare and…

let’s all keep talking about breeding. :slight_smile:

Well…another sort of outside the Box.

Bruce’s stallion Keltic Lion

http://www.brucedavidsoneventing.com/Pages/KelticLion.html

Out of the dam of Eagle Lion by the jumper stallion Lux Z.

Might be an interesting cross on TB mares.

Why do we never consider French horses when we talk about event horse breeding? They have been relatively successful over the past decade with their eventing. Quite a few are being imported to stand over here these days. I know I wouldn’t want a QDR or some of the other lines that are notoriously difficult (pro) rides, but I think the SFs and AAs have a lot to offer. I really don’t know enough about them to focus on particular lines, but they are certainly worth consideration.

TBs these days are almost out of the box thinking. :frowning:

Not outside the box–but does anyone know the pedigree of Nina Gardner’s lovely jumping thoroughbred Cambalda (recent winner at Galway)?

In the current environment is a straight thoroughbred – bred for eventing – “out of the box”?

A big change is people in the US breeding specifically for eventing rather than the eventer being a by product of breeding for another discpline that the horse was not suitable for such as —fill in the blank—(racehorse, jumper, hunter etc.) because the horse was --fill in the blank-- (too hot, drappy knees, flat jumper, hated dressage, was not fast enough etc.) Myabe it is less about the need to breedi out of the box but breeding specifically for the eventers “box.”

Hopefully the US market will substain and reward breeding specifically for eventing.

Here is where I make a confession.

I’m guilty of outside-the-box breeding for eventing.

I wanted to breed a small horse for my small self. My TB mare is a little over 16hh but she’s very compact, a huge mover, and there is simply nowhere to sit on her. It’s like riding a swiss exercise ball. Good for you but not always fun.

I wanted something with horse movement, about 15.2hh or 15.3hh. The mare’s oldest daughter is somewhere between 16.1hh and 16.2hh and by a 16.1 1/2hh stallion. The younger one is by a 16.2hh stallion and will probably finish at 16.1hh.

I looked at Connemaras but eventually ruled them out. Connemaras have a big range in terms of size and they’re uniformly compact. I did not want a pony version of my mare. No one would want to ride such a creature.

I settled on the Akhal-Teke stallion Super Star. Akhal-Tekes don’t have a lot of variance in size, they’re light horses with good endurance and athleticism, etc. And I thought this one had an athletic temperament and a very, very nice gallop. (He was bred as a racehorse and he had a stallion brother in Europe who evented to Advanced.)

The result? I love her. She’s got the most extraordinary brain (much smarter than her mother and sisters) and can do just about anything. She’s naturally forward and brave. She has excellent movement and jump. She’s so solid mentally that you could trail ride her anywhere by herself at age 3 and was a lesson horse for kids at 4. You can rope off her, work cattle, foxhunt, whatever.

But she’s only 14.1hh. :eek: (She’ll be 6 in Feb – the growth fairy never showed.) Yes, I got me a pony. How’s that for outside the box?

I think she’s just atypically short. Although her sire has been used to breed ponies, it’s always from (little) pony mares. My mare’s other daughters are over 16hh.

But I would breed to this stallion again if I was looking to make another small eventer. I’d also recommend Super Star to anyone looking to breed something on the smaller side, especially if you want plan to train/ride it yourself. This little mare is my favorite to ride, and the person who started both her and Dekorum said the pony was easily the more talented of the two.

Ultimately, I’m quite happy with her size as I’m looking forward to using her to breed some quality ponies someday.

Cambalda is an ISH, per the FEI.

Sire is Balda Beau. Dam is Cathy’s Lady.

Pretty sure…but not certain…that Jennie got him from Kellie Temple (she often imports lovely young horses). He’s Irish but that is all I know. Send Jennie Brannigan an email. If she knows I bet she responds.

He is a lovely horse.

ETA: Looks like Viney knew the answer!

hmm-you gotta love US recordkeeping and reporting --somewhere else I read he was a ex-racehorse…

The Jakata mystery seems to be solved. I got an email from his first rider, Julia Crowson, who says that he was definitely by the Louella Abdullah xx.

Pretty sure that is her other horse Walkabout.

BFNE, I have known a bunch of Lux’s in the showjumping arena and they are super talented and beautiful but definitely not always amateur rides and very very sensitive… I wouldn’t put him to a mare who had rideability issues or someone slightly less stable mentally. They also tend to be rangy, bay, types with beautiful heads. He is really really prepotent for a typey head.

Oh, they can also be quite late to mature. Great idea for outside-of-the-box eventing stallions though if you can ride them!

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;5209887]
Pretty sure…but not certain…that Jennie got him from Kellie Temple (she often imports lovely young horses). [/QUOTE]

Yes. He came from Kelli Temple. She bought him the year she won NAYRC on Cooper, and Kelli had imported him and was competing him at Prelim (he was fairly expensive, IIRC).

Then, I know she tried (half-heartedly, really) to sell him, like 1.5 years ago because she wasn’t sure they were a good fit. But I think Philip encouraged her to keep him…

Her new training horse also came from Kelli. As did Cooper.

Indie? That is another lovely one. Kelli certainly has a great eye. (and Jennie has a nice nice line up of horses now—good for her!)

Didn’t know, just looked. The FEI horse search database is incredibly useful, especially now that they link to results. :slight_smile:
Save this link:
http://search.fei.org/Search_Centre/Horse/Pages/Search.aspx

Kelli Temple did import him, per the FEI.

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;5209887]
Pretty sure…but not certain…that Jennie got him from Kellie Temple (she often imports lovely young horses). He’s Irish but that is all I know. Send Jennie Brannigan an email. If she knows I bet she responds.

He is a lovely horse.

ETA: Looks like Viney knew the answer![/QUOTE]

What do we know about the breeding of Apollo VD Wendi Kurt Hoeve?

He was my favorite horse watching WEG…but his breeding doesn’t look familar. Is his breeding outside of the box for eventing?..anything we can learn from it?

I’m having trouble finding any information…and have to get back to work!

He is listed as thoroughbred in the USA eventing data base.

This guy http://www.oakhillranch.com/stallions_rambo.php produced some nice eventing types on a TB mare.

[QUOTE=bornfreenowexpensive;5210132]
What do we know about the breeding of Apollo VD Wendi Kurt Hoeve?[/QUOTE]

His FEI page is here.

Sire is Polidiktus van de Helle. Dam is Naewshit van Wendijkurt by Township xx (Irish-bred). Listed as BWP.

If we are thinking outside the box you could try Trakehners. My foal this year was by Silvermoon (Blue Hors Matine’s sire) out of an ID x TB mare who has been there, done that, in jumping and dressage. Silvermoon has already sired one advanced eventer from very few foals and my foal has sold to an eventing home who already have an Advanced eventer with William Fox-Pitt. I’m very excited that they’re running the foal on as a stallion prospect.

Other Trakehner stallions that may be worth looking at are Interconti. He’s not used much in Germany because he’s grey (they really have an issue with greys over there!) but he consistently throws outstanding stock. His son His Time was reserve champion at Neumunster last weekend and was widely regarded as the best stallion there.

Yet more to consider are Songline, Herzog and Grafenstolz, all these Trakehner stallions won the 6yo Bundeschampionat in eventing in different years.

If you really want to boost your mare’s jump you could use Hirtentanz. He is a lovely light framed stallion with an incredible jump and super temperament.

Or you could think outside the box by going back to the well-proven box. Many of the best eventing lines from the past 30 years are at severe risk of dying out.

The glorious Welton Crackerjack, sire of so many 4**** horses has only one stallion son and he is never advertised. He is called Bazaar’s Exclusive.

Just a Monarch was a superb eventing sire. He produced the world class stallion Rock King. Rock King has only one stallion son and he hasn’t got a sparkling eventing record. He is called King of the Hill II. Rock King frozen is still available to carefully selected mares if anyone would care to try to produce the next stallion from this line.

Shaab has only one stallion son: Upton’s Deli Circus. He’s an advanced eventer and gold medal winner at the Europeans (just like Fleetwater Opposition) and still sound and competing at the grand old age of 20. If you have a classy TB mare he could be the perfect stallion to produce a kind, easy and talented eventer.

Welton Louis’ direct male line has died out. What a tragedy! Same with Edmund Burke and I’m a Star. Sky Boy managed to produce a stallion son who has also been a very successful sire of eventers: Kiltealy Spring. So far Kiltealy Spring has no sons to follow in his footsteps.

The wonderful Java Tiger is represented by just one stallion son who failed his grading although he seems a nice horse. He is called One More Tiger.

Ballinvella seems to only have one graded stallion son. He is called Sand Hill and stands in Ireland. He’s an interesting pedigree as he is by Clover Hill who, despite being graded RID was in fact half TB carrying some of the best galloping and jumping lines around from Arctic Star.

Mayhill, Mark Todd’s great eventing stallion has two stallion sons. Downe Right Rebel has been exported to Germany. His other son Primmore’s Pioneer is full brother to one of the best eventers there has ever been Primmore’s Pride yet he doesn’t get many mares.

Stan the Man has passed away leaving only one son. That is the Trakehner Laurel whose damsire is Pregel so he should jump. He’s only had a handful of mares over the years although he may get more popular now the brilliance of Stan the Man has been belatedly recognised.

Welton Apollo is another one whose line may die out. He has one stallion son Up With the Lark. UWTL is an advanced eventer himself and has sired less than 40 foals. He still has some time left though, he’s only 10.

Nickel King’s male line has died out. Garnered’s male line has died out.

So instead of looking outside the box I think we’d all be wise to look inside the box instead and use these stallions who represent the best bloodlines in the sport. Many are third generation Advanced eventers and all of the above are in the top 100 producers of eventers in the UK. These stallions have produced dozens of 4**** horses, world cup horses and Olympic horses. We don’t need to look at warmbloods to breed eventers. Even the Germans are copying the British and the Irish in how to breed an eventer. What we need to do is appreciate just what we’ve already got and not let it slip through our fingers.

Did you know that the most successful Trakehner sire of eventers ever, Fleetwater Opposition, has no Trakehner stallion son to follow in his footsteps? He’s never even had a stallion presented for grading and is barely used within the breed. Strange isn’t it?