Henry Jota’s bio said he is very spooky. Wasn’t Teddy also a spooky horse? Is this a trait of most upper level horses that needs to be bred for? or just with the right rider?
Henry Jota’s bio said he is very spooky. Wasn’t Teddy also a spooky horse? Is this a trait of most upper level horses that needs to be bred for? or just with the right rider?[/QUOTE]
I agree with you that it is very common for top competition horses to sometimes have a spook in them and frequently they can be difficult. It is the spook that makes a lot of those horses very careful and the same confidence that makes the difficult can also make them winners.
[QUOTE=JER;5206490]
I think the debate is a non-starter. The horses that are successful today are horses that would have been successful in the long format.
This year’s Burghley winner, Lenamore, is a half-bred from good eventing lines who also did well in the long format. Opposition Buzz (perhaps the best jumper in the sport today) is by Fleetwater Opposition out of a Java Tiger mare. Miners Frolic is a full TB by Miners Lamp. Cool Mountain is a full TB by Primitive Rising. The Butts horses are almost all TB. A number of top ‘continental’ horses are by Heraldik xx. Mary King’s string of exceptional homebreds are by TB sires like Primitive Rising and Rock King.
The technical XC courses of today require an agile horse that will be sound on day 3. I think that factor cancels out any perceived advantage the short format has for heavier-type horses. In other words, the type of horse that succeeds today would be the type that could handle the extra work of the roads and tracks and steeplechase.
(The short format is definitely easier for the rider but perhaps not so much for the horse.)
I think breeding TB mares to non-eventing line WBs (Hanoverians, etc.) is risky business unless you know what those WBs produce out of TB mares.[/QUOTE]
I know it is tough to play would’a could’a should’a, especailly since there is no way of knowing what would have happened on day 3. However it seems to me that the German’s lost the team gold at the WEG due rider error and not because the horses did not have the ability to be successful. They of course took the Gold in the individual with Michel Jungs horse who has a TB sire on top with german bred warmblood on the bottom. Andreas Dibowski just won Pau on a horse who is german bred on top and French bred on bottom. The Germans won the team and individual gold medals in Bejing. The individual gold was won on a Jumper bred Holsteiner with TB on top. They also should have had the team gold in Athens, but lost it due to rider error. I realize Ringwood Cockatoo was a Irish horse, but his team mates where german bred horses with a TB. The Germans beat the socks off everybody at the 2006 WEG in the team competition taking the lead by 44 points!! The Germans are passing the British and they have long since passed us. It is happening slowly, but soon they are going to be dominating our sport too. I also realize that the TB is on the top side of most of these breedings and the warmblood is on the bottom, but until I can afford one of those broodmares the top side for the German blood will have to do. Shouldn’t we be learning from the German? Shouldn’t we be trying to breed horses that can eventually beat them instead of being happy breeding horses that are coming in behind them time and time again? It seems as though the British are beginning to catch on since Imperial Cavalier is Holstiener on top and although they are not German bred a lot of the other top sires in England carry warmblood in there pedigree including Catherson Dazzler, and Fleetwater Opposition, who is straight warm blood.
As for horses the top horses of today being capable of being successful in the longer format I completely agree. However the point I was trying to make is that the horses form 10 years ago and years before that would not be beating the horses of today, and hopefully if breeders are doing there job right the horses 10 years from now will be capable of dominating the horses from today.
[QUOTE=vineyridge;5206157]
There is a french research paper that has been published on the genetic components of event horses. Their conclusion was that breeding in dressage blood created a 58% improvement in results; jumping blood improved over 38%; and chasing blood was not helpful in comparison. I cannot remember whether or not the chasing was a minus 18% or a plus 18%.
I have the study saved and would be happy to share it if you’ll send me your email by PM.[/QUOTE]
In the research I did I found a lot of the horses to be dressage bred on the bottom, although there where quite a few that where jumper bred as well. I would love it if some people would look at some video of Contendro and let me know what they think. Here is a link to info on himhttp://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/contendro.htm . And here is a link to a video of him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtUGC6AOcBo&feature=related He just makes me drool! The hard part with him is I can not seem to find any horses that have been bred for eventing. However somebody has to be the first right? My current horse is by a WB who is jumper bred. No other horses had competed in eventing by him when I bought him. I recently took him to YEH and his dressage scores where on par with the horse that won the YEH championships and his jumping scores where higher. I have also gotten high complements from Upper level riders.
I think jumper breeding is good for event horses but it must be used with caution. I’ve been in both worlds…the GP jumpers are a very different animal to a *** or **** event horse.
To me the issue isn’t scope…it is carefullness. If the horse is too careful it creates at least two problems. One, they jump too “Up” and spend too much time in the air. Second, they are not usually brave enough…especially if their rider makes a mistake. You may get far with eventing…but one mistake xc…and they will stop wanting to play.
It is a fine line with show jumpers…a too careful show jumper may also become a stopper…but it is more of an issue with event horses.
My point in all this…the jumper blood lines are being developed to produce jumpers…not event horses. So the carefulness trait may be too strong. So if mixing jumper blood–I’d want to be very careful which jumpers and again…what my mare brings to the table.
I want a brave confident mare…and one that is careful but doesn’t have the allergy to wood quite like a horse like Sapphire. A sire who passes good jumping technique and good scope but they don’t need a ton of offspring at the GP levels for it to be good jumping blood for an event horse.
Have we talked about the event horse brain? Because, besides the gallop, the brain is what makes an event horse to my thinking. The usual words are “heart” and “courage”, but the ability to develop and use the fifth leg is equally important.
Agreed…although I do think that many jumpers are similar in their problem solving abilities, heart and courage. I knew a little mare named named Charisma (twice as long as she was tall). She had more heart and courage then a lot of top event horses…she would jump into lines where the fences were above her head…you would just see her ears.
But since event horses need to do well in dressage while racing fit…I do think that their temperments need to be a bit less hot and spicy as some of the jumpers can be. Ridability but still being able to think for themsevles. I think jumper lines that are known for their ridability are good ones to look at for eventers. Also those that are not only producing good jumpers but also show hunters are worth taking a look at.
I know the NH stallions in Great Britain get alot of good comments. What about looking closely at some of the sires whose babies seem to get it done as 'chasers here? Not all would work, but it is certainly worth a look. I know Northern Baby was at the top of the list for a long time. Darn That Alarm (a fav of mine - now deceased) had some good ones and was certainly the “type”. They have the run and jump, it would just be a matter (it would seem) to find the ones that also have decent movement and trainability and match up with maybe some mares who have those attributes from 'chaser backgrounds. What about it? Maybe also rescue some OTTB’s in the process.
PennyG
[QUOTE=ashley1069;5208019]
Shouldn’t we be learning from the German? Shouldn’t we be trying to breed horses that can eventually beat them instead of being happy breeding horses that are coming in behind them time and time again? [/QUOTE]
Evidence please?
CCI**** winners this year are Cool Mountain (Rolex – TB), Inonothing (Badminton – TB), Tankers Town (Luhmuhlen – trad Irish/UK breeding), Lenamore (Burghley – Irish half-bred), Sam (WEG – by TB Stan the Man out of Heraldik xx mare), FRH Fantasia (Pau – Hanoverian by Federweisser out of mare by Quasi Roi xx).
With the exception of the Pau winner, FRH Fantasia, you’re looking at a time-tested recipe for breeding an eventer. And Pau was a very interesting competition as it was all about the jumping. FRH Fantasia was 11th of 38 after dressage. That’s hardly the definition of WB-breeding influence.
‘Beginning to catch on’? Fleetwater Opposition was born in 1977. His son Yarlands Summersong was in the 1996 Olympics. His grandson, Leprince des Bois was 4th at Pau today.
Catherston Dazzler – himself a home-bred out of the Olympic dressage horse Dutch Courage and a Welton mare who was an advanced eventer – was born in 1984. His first foal, the advanced eventer Broadstone Harvest Moon, was born in 1988. His son Hyde Park Corner was born in 1989 and competed in the 2000 Olympics. This isn’t casual or unsuccessful breeding. It’s purpose-breeding that works and it works in the short format and the long format.
Cavalier Royale crossed very well with the trad Irish mares. But again, he was born in 1978 and has been dead for some time. Not exactly ‘beginning to catch on.’
You could make a stronger argument that the Germans have started to ‘catch on’ to the British system of breeding eventers.
Can you name names? David O’Connor’s Custom Made won the 2000 Olympics. Star Appeal won Badminton, Mr. Smiffy won Burghley. Welton Envoy won Rolex. Darien Powers would have been as good now as he was then. Same with Supreme Rock.
Even a horse like Over to You, who was never the king of dressage, had as good a career in the short format as in the long format.
Best American example of a horse who fits the British model of breeding and was just as good in short format as long is Winsome Adante. He was good enough (superior) in dressage, superior in XC, and quite lovely in showjumping. I’m remembering a Rolex a few years back when almost every horse either knocked down the liverpool jump or took the long option to avoid it. KS went straight at it, almost as if she wanted to show up the other horses (last rider), and cleared it in style.
JER. Ouch. That response to Ashley was a little cringe worthy. Not that I disagree, but that I don’t think everyone has done the research and has the same breadth of knowledge others have earned over the years.
That said, of course we will witness a change of type over time, and of course the Brits were decades ahead of us on this front. That’s not to say, however, that we cannot catch up. There are great horses coming along in the US everyday, and I know people trying very hard to tailor their breeding programs to the modern sport. Think back to Delphy Dazzle or Halloween Time, they had excellent flat work that couldve easily reached our current demands. Here, it is also important to remember the requirements of the tests themselves have evolved. We can’t hold those horses to our standard because we don’t know what they couldve been capable of, because it was never asked of them. No fault of their own.
vineyridge and bornfree. I could not agree more with your emphasis on the mind of the eventer.
JER. Over to you. Great example. And this is where I think the Brits have us doubly beat, not only do they have good breeding programs, they have team management that puts emphasis on these pathfinder type horses. When over to you stepped aside, opposition buzz took his place. It’s clear that Boyd is stepping into that role now, but the anchor and the pathfinder are the stalwarts of the British event team, and cry as we might about needing better dressage horses, I will forever beat the jumper drum. Finish on your dressage score! No time, no stops, NO rails.
Jump jump jump. Mare mare mare. Mind mind mind.
[QUOTE=VicarageVee;5208876]
JER. Ouch. That response to Ashley was a little cringe worthy. Not that I disagree, but that I don’t think everyone has done the research and has the same breadth of knowledge others have earned over the years. [/QUOTE]
ashley1069 made some sweeping statements without presenting evidence. I don’t mean to make anyone cringe but I think we should at least make an effort to support our claims, especially when it takes all of a couple of seconds to find the name of a competition winner in 2000 or any other relatively recent year.
I believe research is a very important part of a breeder’s responsibilities and I’m infinitely indebted to this BB for providing information and ideas on sporthorse breeding. It’s a great resource but it also requires that we hold ourselves to a high standard.
[QUOTE=VicarageVee;5208876]cry as we might about needing better dressage horses, I will forever beat the jumper drum. Finish on your dressage score! No time, no stops, NO rails.
Jump jump jump. Mare mare mare. Mind mind mind.[/QUOTE]
I mostly agree with the above. Eventing dressage is not especially specialized or difficult. An average mover can score well with an accurate test. The winner at Pau was 11th of 38 in dressage and we’ve seen other recent CCI**** (Badminton a couple of times) where this has happened. Finishing on your dressage score will always move you well up the leaderboard.
[QUOTE=JWB;5197630]
Where can you find info on him? Googling “Hunter Stallion” pulls up a ton of results but for horses like Red Wine, Apiro, etc…[/QUOTE]
I saw a couple stallions named Hunter on the US eventing site but wasn’t sure which she was speaking of.
[QUOTE=ashley1069;5208033]
I would love it if some people would look at some video of Contendro and let me know what they think. Here is a link to info on himhttp://www.superiorequinesires.com/stallions/contendro.htm . And here is a link to a video of him. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QtUGC6AOcBo&feature=related [/QUOTE]
Okay, you asked. 
I would not choose this stallion if I wanted to breed a UL eventer. Or any eventer, really.
Why not?
– too much knee action at trot
– hocks trail out behind at both trot and canter
– too much up and down in canter
– too much knee action in canter
I don’t like his shoulder and his canter is what I’d call downhill. He’s very heavy on his front end.
I also think he’s tends to be hard on himself (lands hard) over the jumps, although those jumps are so big it’s difficult to know what he’d do over 4’. But this is something to think about if you’re breeding for eventers, who are not going to be competing in groomed arena footing for much of their competitive life.
I’m very curious as to what you see in him that makes you think he’d be a good sire of eventers.
But why you? I suppose you wouldn’t be taking a big chance if you were certain that he produced eventing types out of mares like yours or if you were planning to breed a mare whose offspring consistently take after the mare in all the important ways. However, those are big ifs.
While your “thinking outside of the box” I wanted to tell you about Bravo as well. While he’s still young and his first offspring are just starting u/s, he is showing quite well in eventing. He just finished his first year at Training and will be moving up to Prelim next year.
The videos are of him from last year at Novice. I’m still waiting for video from this years shows.
He has numerous premium and site champion foals from all of his foal crops and I hope to show a couple at the YEH and FEH next year. We showed the youngsters this year at the USDF breedshows where they did great but I thought it would be fun to show them where their sire is competing.
Happy stallion shopping and I hope you get the foal of your dreams! :-))
http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/bravo35
Bravo at Ramtap-nov. 13-15-09, age 5
Cross Country:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-0eIkg3iIE
Stadium:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6uvz-aoaeQ
Dressage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoDBBmMiPa4
Bravo offspring from full TB mares
Brimstone- 2009 colt- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Giaky_Ej0tU
Brimstone- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqg7rfZf3u4
Bandari- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrY_O2oEuoA
Bravos’ First Class- 2 year old colt o/o 1/2 TB mare
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENthfWDjETg
Berlin- yearling filly o/o WB mare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XLDrDb0nQVg
JER trust me I was not trying to put down previous horses who where winners. I think they where fantastic horses and some of them would be competitive today. I was trying to point out that the point is to improve the sport and not stay the same. I also was not trying to put down the British sires. I have looked into there background and think that if we breed to one of them we will probably get a very nice horse from one of them. But this forum is called “thinking outside of the box” not doing the same thing we have been doing over and over and over again. Personally this will probably be my last post on this forum, because who wants to be treated so rudely and have there words twisted. What makes you so ugly to other people I am not sure, however I have noticed it on other forums as well as on Eventing Nation. Since you brought him up in reference to Catherson Dazzler, I know Hyde Park Corner quite well. I took care of him for many years in his retirement and had the absolute honor of riding him and competing him for a while before his legs made it clear he was not able to come out of retirement. While he taught me so much about jumping, more than any instructor could teach me, he was quite difficult on the flat. Having the help of his rider for many years helped me figure out things a lot quicker and keep the desire to buck me off somewhat low although he still tried and on any given day would refuse to canter with out stomping his inside front leg every stride. These where not problems I alone had, he was a horse that could be brillant any given day and be very difficult the next all while being given the same ride. I was not the first person who was given the opportunity to ride him, but I was the only one that lasted, and he did not buck off or completely refuse to work. He has an extremely specail place in my heart and I love on him and give him treats everytime I see him. He is one of my all time favorite horses. I occationally find myself wanting a horse like him and leaning towards breeding one, and in the end we may do just that. However as great a jumper as he is there is still a chance that sibling of his could be that difficult on the flat. I think he had a chance to win the Sydney Olympics and it is that difficulty that kept him from doing so. While 9th place at the Olympics is no small feat I just wonder.
I am sure whatever we breed to we will get a very nice baby. Good luck to everybody else breeding horses this year.
[QUOTE=ashley1069;5209114]
JER trust me I was not trying to put down previous horses who where winners. I think they where fantastic horses and some of them would be competitive today. [/QUOTE]
But ashley1069, this is what you wrote:
And you say I’m ‘twisting your words’?
I agree that you weren’t putting down British stallions per se but you made some fairly strong criticisms of the British method of breeding eventers and these criticisms weren’t supported by evidence. I simply asked for your evidence or perhaps some examples.
Can you show me exactly where and how I’ve twisted your words or been rude to you?
I used examples to refute your argument. That’s all. But this is a discussion forum and you made some rather hefty claims without giving any evidence. You mentioned the top horses of 10 years ago; I simply presented some of those names as evidence against your argument.
There’s a difference between attacking a person and attacking a proposition. I have not attacked you in any way. I have, however, made counter-arguments to the claims you made about breeding.
You’re the one making personal attacks, ashley1069.
Gah! I did say it was “cringe worthy” did I not? :lol:
Ok, but in all seriousness, this is a FORUM. We should have reasonable expectations of politeness, but it is fair to disagree with others and ask for some kind of explanation/accountability. For JER, this is important. And I think she is right to point out that we ought to put a premium of research here–particularly on the breeding forum. Shake it off Ashley! No one here bites! (And I am only silently judging for poor syntax and spelling!)
I do think you make a good point that this thread is for thinking outside of the box, but FO and CD were two of the first horses to be proposed. Pretty standard fare for event breeding. And I think JER’s concerns about Contendro are reasonable. But Ashley, before you get upset (lord knows I get upset ALL the TIME about this forum, because no matter how fast I type, I can’t scream!) you also have to remember, that while we are all trying to breed good eventers we all have a “type” we prefer. If yours is not JER’s there is no harm in that, and you have a right to say it, but she, equally, has a right to disagree and give examples.
Anyways, I’m done mediating. I, personally, don’t fret overly much about high knee action–I worry more about the “up-down” canter. Master Imp horses are NOTORIOUS for those kinds of trots, and he has certainly thrown his fair share of successful eventers.
What about Lintas??
Gah! I did say it was “cringe worthy” did I not? :lol:
Ok, but in all seriousness, this is a FORUM. We should have reasonable expectations of politeness, but it is fair to disagree with others and ask for some kind of explanation/accountability. For JER, this is important. And I think she is right to point out that we ought to put a premium of research here–particularly on the breeding forum. Shake it off Ashley! No one here bites! (And I am only silently judging for poor syntax and spelling!)
I do think you make a good point that this thread is for thinking outside of the box, but FO and CD were two of the first horses to be proposed. Pretty standard fare for event breeding. And I think JER’s concerns about Contendro are reasonable. But Ashley, before you get upset (lord knows I get upset ALL the TIME about this forum, because no matter how fast I type, I can’t scream!) you also have to remember, that while we are all trying to breed good eventers we all have a “type” we prefer. If yours is not JER’s there is no harm in that, and you have a right to say it, but she, equally, has a right to disagree and give examples.
Anyways, I’m done mediating. I, personally, don’t fret overly much about high knee action–I worry more about the “up-down” canter. Master Imp horses are NOTORIOUS for those kinds of trots, and he has certainly thrown his fair share of successful eventers.
What about Lintas??
JER I sincerly apologize for saying anything offensive about you. I felt attacked and reacted harshly. I watched the video of your mare Dekorum a few days ago and she is lovely. Good luck with her in the future, I wish you much success.
