How about a Ben Faerie son?
I am sure Jakata was by TB Abdullah, born and bred GB before Louella sold him to Ireland. As usual paperwork in this country especially for geldings are not considered important. I will see if there is any cules on his passport would rather know what he was out of as we had a few TB Abdullahs and all were duds.
Well I bred mine outside the box.
Personally, I think that the quality of event horses has greatly improved recently. So the “proven” event lines are expanding and changing. In years past, these incredible movers and jumpers would by and large never leave the show world and would never be sold into the event world. So I think we will see new types and names at the top competitions in the next 5 years…but of course, a good horse is a good horse and so many of the “proven” lines will continue to be competitive.
Anyway…I did start with a mare who I knew well and knew her family. She went up to Prelim with me in her first year competing…and only my riding was keeping us back. There were many others who wanted to ride her for me ;). I bred her to Escudo I at the suggestion of Boyd Martin (who breds many of his own horses). Boyd said he has liked the cross on TB mares like mine–and he likes my mare (She is a much more rangy refined type of mare–related to a few Maryland Hunt cup winners). So very different looking than the OPs mare.
We were looking to shorten my mare’s top line and add a touch of substance but not take away from her movement, gallop or jump. Main focus was keeping the good jump as she was more than a nice enough mover for eventing. The filly looks to be a nice improvement. Too young to really tell…She is smart and brave though. I intend to cross the filly with a TB or mostly TB sire…was thinking Mighty Magic but there are some tall genes from the dam already (and the filly looks tall).
End of the day…it just takes so darn long to wait for them to grow up and see if you got it right!!! And it is so important to know you mare and pick a sire right for her…
Filly at her inspection at about 4 months old (high score foal)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijvoqniBN-g
Right before weaning (with winter coat) at about 51/2 months—hard to really see her movement with her tail over her back;)
Great Discussion
OP here - I’ve been waylaid by work the last couple of days, so have been absent from my own post, but I am glad to see that the discussion is still going and appreciate all of the thoughts. I probably will get a moment to post more over the weekend.
One point though – I agree with the comments above about focusing on quality mares. Like JER mentions, most of us do not have the luxury of using only advanced eventing mares in our program (at least for now, and I don’t think VV was being judgmental of others when describing her program - I wish I could do exactly as she is doing), but I totally agree that the mare is a huge (and sometimes neglected) part of the equation, and that they have to be selected carefully. We picked over a number of potential mare candidates before selecting the mare that was described in my original post, and hopefully we have gotten it right (prior to our acquiring her, she was used as a broodmare in a non-eventing breeding program (hunters and dressage) and produced very nice offspring with her prior owner). We were able to see one of her yearling foals in person, and the filly was an improved version of the mare. We’ll see - and like everyone else we are trying to improve our chances by matching what we think is a good mare with the right stallion for her specifically.
Mare mare mare mare mare - we hear you loud and clear. 
I’ve been pimping Knock Wood. He’s an SF stallion by Olisco out of a full sister to Gem Twist. Stands at Newsprint Farms. He would pick up the Double Jay through his dam.
Before he came back to the United States, he was in New Zealand with Greg Best. He’s got some very, very nice youngish event horses down there, along with this year’s 6 year old jumper champion. His name in New Zealand was BT. He’s got three who are on the Clifton Eventing website, one of which was the Young Event Horse Champion for New Zealand, and, IIRC, the other was Reserve. The two Clifton names I remember are Clifton Bee Gee and Clifton Zander. You can see both on the Clifton website.
Given your mare’s pedigree, A Fine Romance would be a worthy choice. There are so many connections that it’s almost impossible to itemize them. Double Jay, Nasrullah, Turn-To, Princequillo, just to name a few. For instance Mahmoud is a very close relative to Nasrullah, as is Royal Charger.
[QUOTE=poltroon;5203492]
OP did not say she wanted more height, so in the spirit of Thinking Outside the Box, I’ll throw out the suggestion of the 15.1 Connemara stallion *ArdCeltic Art, who is young, eventing at prelim with an amateur, moving up to intermediate soon, and with a 68% score at Fourth level from this past winter in Florida./QUOTE]
I really like Connamaras, but we are looking to at least maintain height – for a variety of uninteresting reasons, I previously bred some Warmblood/Arabian crosses for the amateur dressage market, thinking that size would matter less there. I have been proven wrong on that one, even when the offspring were fantastic movers and generated a lot of initial interest – folks find out the horse is less than 15.3 and the interest disappears. I’m not a height snob (my main horse is 15.3), but most people just want something taller. To brag, though, they are really nice movers, and should stay sound and durable for years:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlQWzXNBTJ8
I decided a couple of years ago that if I was to continue breeding that I should focus on the type of horse that I personally would like to ride; the more you love what you are doing, the better the chances are that you’ll do it right, hence changing the focus to where we are now.
Does anyone know if it is possible to get Mighty Magic semen in NA?
Kookicat: I spoke to the owner of Tinslie Faerie Legend at Brendon Hill because his bloodlines screamed UL eventer, but she doesn’t do frozen semen! That was several years ago, but as far as I know those stallions aren’t available on this side of the pond. 
I would like to further the discussion a bit about what we need to be breeding to produce successful upper level event horses. I am Pergrine Farms partner and have been following this thread with him and have really enjoyed reading what everybody has said and have finally decided to get in on the action. 10 years ago if somebody had recommended breeding warmblood to TB to produce a upper level event horse they would have been the minority and now they are the majority. Eventing has changed drastically over the past several years and is going to continue to change. That being said I think in order to breed successful horses we have to try to predict the future…since we have to breed horses that will be successful in the future. I question whether the type of horse that is winning today will be the same horse who is winning in 10 years. My thoughts are that the future of eventing is going to be TB crossed onto jumper stallions that move well, have good gallops, and while jumping well have the ability to get across the jump fast. I think there is no such thing as too scopey for eventing. As we have seen rotational falls are occuring far too often in eventing therefore breeding excellent jumping horses is one way to reduce the risk. That is where jumper horses that gallop well and get across the fences fast comes into play. I feel as though where too scopey of horses get a bad name in eventing is when they jump way up and seem to hang in the air, almost as though they are awaiting their photo op, which eats up valuable seconds on the clock. Please post your opinions and thoughts on this theory. Watching stallion videos I have noticed that a lot of Contender sons have the qualities I listed above. Does anybody know of any Contender grandsons or sons that are in the eventing world? One of the stallions listed in the original post was Contendro. I love the way this stallion goes and any additional info on him would be greatly apprecaited.
Also I have linked to a lot of the stallions that have been mentioned and I have a few questions. Does anybody know of any of Cicera’s Icewater’s offspring currently competing. From what I could tell his oldest offspring should be around 5 and should be beginning there careers, but i could not find any of the ones listed on the USEA horse search.
There is a french research paper that has been published on the genetic components of event horses. Their conclusion was that breeding in dressage blood created a 58% improvement in results; jumping blood improved over 38%; and chasing blood was not helpful in comparison. I cannot remember whether or not the chasing was a minus 18% or a plus 18%.
I have the study saved and would be happy to share it if you’ll send me your email by PM.
[QUOTE=ashley1069;5206148]
I am Peregrine Farms’ partner and have been following this thread with him and have really enjoyed reading what everybody has said and have finally decided to get in on the action. 10 years ago if somebody had recommended breeding warmblood to TB to produce a upper level event horse they would have been the minority and now they are the majority. Eventing has changed drastically over the past several years and is going to continue to change. That being said I think in order to breed successful horses we have to try to predict the future…since we have to breed horses that will be successful in the future. I question whether the type of horse that is winning today will be the same horse who is winning in 10 years. My thoughts are that the future of eventing is going to be TB crossed onto jumper stallions that move well, have good gallops, and while jumping well have the ability to get across the jump fast. [/QUOTE]
Does everyone get to have these discussions with their significant other? I think we are lucky to both care about this question, and Ashley poses the question well: Breeding for a foal that will start competing 4-5 years from now – established U.K. eventing lines, or continental warmblood lines - which way do you go? That is the debate at our house at the moment.
[QUOTE=Peregrine Farm;5206453]
Breeding for a foal that will start competing 4-5 years from now – established U.K. eventing lines, or continental warmblood lines - which way do you go? That is the debate at our house at the moment.[/QUOTE]
I think the debate is a non-starter. The horses that are successful today are horses that would have been successful in the long format.
This year’s Burghley winner, Lenamore, is a half-bred from good eventing lines who also did well in the long format. Opposition Buzz (perhaps the best jumper in the sport today) is by Fleetwater Opposition out of a Java Tiger mare. Miners Frolic is a full TB by Miners Lamp. Cool Mountain is a full TB by Primitive Rising. The Butts horses are almost all TB. A number of top ‘continental’ horses are by Heraldik xx. Mary King’s string of exceptional homebreds are by TB sires like Primitive Rising and Rock King.
The technical XC courses of today require an agile horse that will be sound on day 3. I think that factor cancels out any perceived advantage the short format has for heavier-type horses. In other words, the type of horse that succeeds today would be the type that could handle the extra work of the roads and tracks and steeplechase.
(The short format is definitely easier for the rider but perhaps not so much for the horse.)
I think breeding TB mares to non-eventing line WBs (Hanoverians, etc.) is risky business unless you know what those WBs produce out of TB mares.
[QUOTE=Peregrine Farm;5206453]
Does everyone get to have these discussions with their significant other? I think we are lucky to both care about this question, and Ashley poses the question well: Breeding for a foal that will start competing 4-5 years from now – established U.K. eventing lines, or continental warmblood lines - which way do you go? That is the debate at our house at the moment.[/QUOTE]
This is the question I raised in different terms on a thread about the YEH. I believe that we will see a dramatic shift in a decade to a new more “sporthorse” type. A scopier jumper, a flashier mover, with a substantial (but perhaps not dominant) amount of blood.
But my questions was, is the reason we are seeing a holdover of the pure TB type and the ISH type is because the riders at the top today got there on those same types of horses? Karen and Philip are comfortable on those types, theyve been competing that breeding for years, why change now? As we see younger riders come through the ranks who have grown up with a different stable of horses, will we witness a change?
Is it necessarily that TBs are still the horse for the modern format, or is that the riders from the long format prefer that type of ride. This is why statistics in eventing make me crazy–there’s no adjustment for the many variables in play.
Speaking of stallions, is anyone using Hirtentanz for event horses? I know he’s expensive and as of now, unproven, but he has a very, very nice pedigree for modern day eventing.
Boyd Martin’s Remington XXV is pure Hannoverian from dressage line stallions, but his second dam is a Trak, and he has only one line to a TB. His sire is Rubenstein I. This might be the kind of breeding that the French study thinks is useful. Remy is currently standing 4th at Pau, after only time faults on XC.
All the horses had time faults except the one Scandinavia guy riding a TB. He was the only double clear on the whole day and is standing 6th or so. WFP, who is leading on an Australian TB, had only 3.2 time faults, which is the lowest number. Karin Donckers is second on her full TB, while the next two are Kai Ruder and Andreas Dibowski. Ruder is riding his Le Prince des Bois, a purpose bred event horse by Yarland’s Summersong; Dibo’s horse is a Hannoverian who has a good bit of TB in the back part of her pedigree, and her dam sire is the SF Quasi Roi, who has the usual SF concentrations of TB.
VV, I think the answer will come as course designers start designing courses for the horses that are being bred and used in eventing. Continental Europeans do CICs almost to the exclusion of CCIs, and there is a rather large difference in the amount of distance between the two. If you breed for CICs, will CCIs go the way of the dodo? The Brits and Irish and Aussies and New Zealanders still ride horses for CCIs.
This is precisely what happened to Show Jumping.
Sure rider preference has a lot to do with it, but if you look at the results of these mostly WBs compared with the others at places like WEG, the Mostly WBs couldn’t hold their own. The Continental Europeans like their Mostly WBs for their mostly CICs, and they have been riding them for decades. The Brits, Aussies, Kiwis and us have been kicking butt for decades. But if the courses change to favor the Mostly WBs, riders will be riding them. I note that Pippa Funnel has started riding more SFs. Redesigned is a pure SF whose only TB line on the first page is to Laudanum on top.
Shorter, more intense courses put more emphasis on dressagey attributes, de-emphasize endurance and stamina, and change the importance of the scores from XC to dressage and Stadium. You’ve actually got Ruth Edge still in the top ten at Pau with a stop on course because her dressage was so good.
God, here I am suggesting that the next move will be something to change more CCIs to CIC, right after we’ve had the fight over Long versus Short Format. But I do think that is likely to be the next battlefront. It’s certainly how the Germans want the sport to “evolve” (devolve).
[QUOTE=VicarageVee;5206630]
This is the question I raised in different terms on a thread about the YEH. I believe that we will see a dramatic shift in a decade to a new more “sporthorse” type. A scopier jumper, a flashier mover, with a substantial (but perhaps not dominant) amount of blood.
But my questions was, is the reason we are seeing a holdover of the pure TB type and the ISH type is because the riders at the top today got there on those same types of horses? Karen and Philip are comfortable on those types, theyve been competing that breeding for years, why change now? As we see younger riders come through the ranks who have grown up with a different stable of horses, will we witness a change?
Is it necessarily that TBs are still the horse for the modern format, or is that the riders from the long format prefer that type of ride. This is why statistics in eventing make me crazy–there’s no adjustment for the many variables in play.[/QUOTE]
not sure if it has been mentioned but Abdullah’s brother Amiego won the Pan Am gold in eventing…
[QUOTE=not again;5206701]
not sure if it has been mentioned but Abdullah’s brother Amiego won the Pan Am gold in eventing…[/QUOTE]
Who then produced Haiti E one of the mares at Galten Farms who was bred to Bukephalos who ran around Burghley and was himself half TB in order to produce their stallion Hilton GS. (See my other thread)
So, in other words, Hilton GS is 1/4+ TB with a ****sire, and a pan am gold grand sire on his dams side. But where are his event babies!!??
I’ve been doing some research into the Hilton GS/Bukephalos/Amiego trakhener lines in eventing and Hilton GS seems to have VERY few babies on the ground. We are considering breeding one of our tb/trak mares to him, but haven’t been able to find enough examples of offspring to get a sense what he throws.
Speaking of Abdullah…
Any word on that front vineyridge? I can’t imagine he really is by the trak version, but I can imagine the trakehner verband taking credit for it! Lol 
Imight stand corrected re:Jakata he is down on Pedigree online as being by Abdullah the Trakehner, all though was told by source at Louella he was by their Abdullah. But sorry thats going off the main topic.
The Allbreed pedigree site is notorious for mistakes.
On the mystery sire–Julia Crowson has been asked, and she has no idea of the breeding of the horse she rode for five years. She got him from a broker, and now there are further inquiries being made, I think. The TB did stand for a bit at Louella before being sold to Ireland.
Best to be careful about sweeping judgments regarding the stallions. The mare really matters as breeders here surely know!
Cruising crossed to Clover Hill mares has proven to be an international jumper nick, not just for jump, but for trainability. A “little” spook is a good thing in a prospective jumper as any knowledgeable trainer will tell you. It maintains carefulness over the long haul. “Too” brave at first often means careless not too far down the road. Its a balance of traits and good management that produces and maintains the top horses.
But I do not believe his frozen is available any more.
Same for Riverman if crossed to mares with certain lines (Buckpasser in particular and somewhat surprisingly in our experience, a mare with multiple crosses to Nasrullah, BUT the mare is quiet herself). Phenomenal athleticism, good work ethic. These babies have had dispositions similar to their dams.
