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Thinking Outside the Box - Eventing Stallions

Sport Horse Breeding
#81

Mistake

I think that ruling out the Irish Draught because of deficiencies in movement…i.e. that a continental warmblood would be better…is probably stinkin thinkin. The Irish Draught is doing very well in dressage though there are few out there. What they may lack in flashy suspension they more than make up for in trainability and ability to collect. There are some Irish Draughts that are very fine movers. Unfortunately Irish Draught owners are seriously deficient at marketing and there are few out there on video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqF6wjgbULA
Archie is available frozen to the US
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVGj-PeJ3PU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfI5yTDfMlY&feature=related
Bridon Beale Street is in Calif.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDYD1qUgOP8&feature=related
KECDD is in Florida
Those are a few. Then to say that Irish Draughts contribute that 5th leg and courage, sensibility, and a great gallop. PatO

#82

[QUOTE=columbus;5203248]
I think that ruling out the Irish Draught because of deficiencies in movement…[/QUOTE]

But why would you want a half-bred if you’re trying to produce a UL eventer?

You’d be better off going with an IDSH if you want Irish.

#83

I like the idea of adding some good Anglo Arab blood. You might end up with one like Tamarillo.

http://www.biddesdenstud.co.uk

#84

It must be the hardest combination to find - the qualities of an event horse.
The heart of a lion and extremely good legs and feet - plus all the rest.

If JER does not like Riverman (aslthough he is an all rounder), his son Royal Appearance is a look-alike with a gentlemanly disposition and has thrown eventers, including Raconteur - going Advance in the UK.

The Irish bred horse leads the rankings for event horses – but outside the box - hmmm, not sure why?

#85

`
Don’t forget the late O’Leary’s Irish Diamond and Steeped in Lock.

#86

[QUOTE=Foxtrot’s;5203380]

If JER does not like Riverman (aslthough he is an all rounder), his son Royal Appearance is a look-alike with a gentlemanly disposition and has thrown eventers, including Raconteur - going Advance in the UK.[/QUOTE]

Just to clarify, I think Riverman is a really nice-looking horse.

However, I’ve seen a number of Riverman youngsters and foals (he was a very popular sire at the breeding facility I used) and temperaments were questionable. There was one that was from a mare that was totally wacky (the owner did ET; the mare was probably too nutty for motherhood) – that one was a doozy.

I have heard good things about Royal Appearance.

#87

I’m with JER on this. ISH/TB/WB for an upper level (and I mean like * horse). ID is just too heavy. Come up with all the examples you want, it’s my opinion and I’m stickin to it.

I’ve really enjoyed this thread, but I genuinely believe the best way to breed UL talent with a high probability of success is to start with the mare. An advanced mare has an excellent chance of producing an UL offspring. The other option is to look at mares who consistenly produce UL horses as either full or half siblings. In all of this, I always put more stock in the mare than the stallion.

I won’t buy a mare who isn’t out of a **** mare or a full sibling to a **** horse if I’m thinking seriously about breeding her (and believe it or not, I’ve managed to stick to this). I’m not saying you can’t get beautiful and talented UL horses from unproven mares, but your chances, in my opinion, go up by 75% when you start with a proven mare. This is how the Brits have us beat: they’ve got the mares.

I know. I sound like a broken record: mare, mare, mare.

#88

OP did not say she wanted more height, so in the spirit of Thinking Outside the Box, I’ll throw out the suggestion of the 15.1 Connemara stallion *ArdCeltic Art, who is young, eventing at prelim with an amateur, moving up to intermediate soon, and with a 68% score at Fourth level from this past winter in Florida.

http://www.hiddencreekhorses.com/our-stallion.html

He is still a young stallion, so you wouldn’t get to see babies out and about competing yet. Perhaps not the first cross on this mare, but I think he’s worth keeping an eye on.

#89

I have seen this horse here in Florida and I have to say I have been absolutely impressed by him on all accounts. He is all that.

#90

I know Abdullah’s (like a lot of jumper sire offspring) have had the reputation of being hot, but it wouldn’t boggle the mind for me to see him used for offspring that have to do 3-4th level event-style dressage. IIRC, Abdullah performed to at least that level in dressage himself, along with some eventing, before he became a show jumper. And his dam’s sister or 1/2 sister Fawiza, when bred to Abdullah’s sire, Donauwind, produced Fabian, who went on to be one of Dr. Klimke’s international GP horses and was Eurupean champion I believe.

I would expect you might get heat with Abdullah, and maybe not an ammy ride for everyone, but for a quiet rider I think you’d have all the genetics and talent to handle UL event dressage easily, with a tactful rider. jmo, fwiw.

PS - VV, it’s a great plan, but it takes a lot of time and a lot of competition $$ here in the states to make a **** mare Nothing against the plan, but just to note it’s impact on the mare’s breeding life.

#91

[QUOTE=Waterwitch;5203211]
Piggy French was asked this question by a journalist friend of mine in Ireland, right after she returned from WEG . At that time she didn’t know which Abdullah.[/QUOTE]

Maybe the question should be posed to the woman who had the ride on Jakata before Piggy. Although, helpfully, I am blanking on her name… But she took the horse to Badminton in…08? 07? Something like that…

Yup. That was really helpful.

#92

Before you jump into the Trak Abdullah’s frozen semen tanks, wait until we are sure that he is the sire of Jakata. Somehow I just can’t see a Trak Abdullah from an “unknown” mare doing 4th level dressage happily.

I’ve been in contact with several people in Ireland who believe the sire is far more likely to have been the H.I.S. Supreme Champion Newcomer at the Newmarket Stallion Show who was sold to Ireland by the illustrious Louella Stud. Louella has long history of breeding event horses from such stars as Primitive Rising. I understand that Louella claims it’s the one they sold while Williamsburg says its their Abdullah. Piggy French just says it’s Abdullah without specifying. Jakata has no registry of any kind, no breeder info, no dam info and no sire info on either the British National Equine Database or the FEI Horse Registration database.

The TB Abdullah was approved by the Irish Horse Board and has offspring with points in SJIA and Eventing.

Which Abdullah is yet a mystery!

#93

[QUOTE=mbp;5203541]

PS - VV, it’s a great plan, but it takes a lot of time and a lot of competition $$ here in the states to make a **** mare Nothing against the plan, but just to note it’s impact on the mare’s breeding life.[/QUOTE]

We know, and we’ve been very lucky. Very lucky. But our view is very much about the long-term health of eventing in the US, and the notion that there will be a market for event-bred horses in the future.

Really, it started as a project that went something like this: Kelli Temple has such nice young horses, why can’t we get those horses domestically? She’s certainly proven there is a market for them, why can’t we breed them? Everyone has access these days to the same stallions (within reason), it had to be a matter of getting better mares. Really, it was a plan hatched to prevent having to ever buy another event horse again!! NEVER AGAIN!!! (Ok, well, not true quite yet, but that’s my ideal).

Hopefully, in a decade, we will have been able to produce horses who have the mind and temperment to event, but the movement and the jump to make our sister disciplines drool.

In 20 years, I’ll let you know how it went! :wink:

#94

[QUOTE=VicarageVee;5203603]
Maybe the question should be posed to the woman who had the ride on Jakata before Piggy. Although, helpfully, I am blanking on her name… But she took the horse to Badminton in…08? 07? Something like that…

Yup. That was really helpful.[/QUOTE]

Julia Crowson. I’ve already emailed her. Got someone in Ireland who has also emailed her.

#95

The Trak. Abdullah was a fantastic jumper stallion but (and I don’t know if this is limited to just my experience or others have experienced it too) of the three of his babies that I knew personally, two did not sweat. I also know one was a hunter and two were jumpers. One’s owner attempted to event her but the horse would lie down on cross country with her! Otherwise, she was a fantastic horse. Easy and uncomplicated in the jumpers but she did not want to be an event horse.

#96

[QUOTE=JWB;5203664]
The Trak. Abdullah was a fantastic jumper stallion but. One’s owner attempted to event her but the horse would lie down on cross country with her! Otherwise, she was a fantastic horse. Easy and uncomplicated in the jumpers but she did not want to be an event horse.[/QUOTE]

HAHAHA. OK, that is a funny image.

I wouldn’t personally breed to Abdullah (even if Piggy French’s Jakata does end up being by him). I’ve been looking seriously at the Galten Farms stallions who make use of Abiza (Abdullah’s dam) to different ends, by breeding to Bukephalos who is half Irish TB steeplechaser on his dam’s side and himself a *** event horse. They seem to have some really nice, under-exposed event lines up there with Trakehner stamps and plenty of TB blood.

Check it out:
http://galtenfarms.tripod.com/

#97

I don’t know that I would rule out the Trak. Abdullah for eventers. I’ve had experience with only one colt by him but he was athletic as all get out and had a good brain and temperament. He was out of a Hanoverian mare, not one with a lot of TB blood, and went on to become quite famous as a GP showjumper in Europe and finally S. America. His name was Airborne Monticello.

By the way, I really like the Connemara up above. I’ll have to look him up at the shows this year.

#98

The Trakehner Abdullah was a successful eventer before he was a showjumper. He won the ATA eventing award in 1976 and 1977.

IIRC, he was talent-spotted for the Canadian eventing team but his owners wanted him to live at home so he turned to showjumping.

#99

[QUOTE=VicarageVee;5203482]

I won’t buy a mare who isn’t out of a **** mare or a full sibling to a **** horse if I’m thinking seriously about breeding her (and believe it or not, I’ve managed to stick to this). I’m not saying you can’t get beautiful and talented UL horses from unproven mares, but your chances, in my opinion, go up by 75% when you start with a proven mare. [/QUOTE]

My own mare is what you would consider ‘unproven’ but she was carefully selected for her job. She has movement, jump, endurance and conformation. All of this comes through in her offspring.

Your criteria are quite strict and there simply aren’t many mares in the US that would make the grade. However, the stellar TB mares are out there, it just takes a good eye and a lot of research to find them.

Once you have the mare, it’s a matter of choosing the right stallion for your mare, which is where I think many people go wrong. If you want a UL eventer, breed to a stallion who has a proven record of producing UL event horses out of mares like yours. If you’re breeding to a WB, make sure you know what that WB produces out of TB mares – a lot of ‘spare parts’ animals come from these crosses.

#100

[QUOTE=Molly Malone;5197816]
Out of the box?

Edelweiss de Bonce (SF with 87% blood and bred to jump)
Coconut Grove xx

neither are proven producers yet.

Then I’ll throw in Abdullah, Special Memories, Horales and Windfall. All P g Trakehner stallions that pass on their jump.[/QUOTE]

I have a Special Memories foal out of my KWPN mare. She is Goodtimes - Calvados- Ramiro. The colt is very athletic with a great gallop he shows us regularly! Smart, quick but sane.
Photo of them both:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs671.snc4/61172_480114681521_53352356521_6874321_2663298_n.jpg

2 Video links are on my FB page, his name is Frequency
http://www.facebook.com/home.php?ref=home#!/pages/Burlington-WI/Six-Pound-Farm/53352356521

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