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THIS IS WHY!! THIS IS WHY!!! *rant*

Sport Horse Breeding
#101

<smile>…pwynn is actually correct on this. If you CHOOSE to keep your mares in box stalls bedded to their bellies and mollycoddle them, hiring people to insure that there is never a pile of manure anywhere and feeding them only the very, very best hay, throwing out anything that is in the least bit dusty, you cannot expect to recoup that in the cost of your foals. That’s just common sense.

However, flip side of things is that I can literally cut my expenses to the bare bones and save probably a couple grand a year on each foal and I know of several breeding operations that do exactly that. Pasture last year was scarce here in Oklahoma, but if I chose not to hay my mares from April through September, I would have saved considerably there. Yeah, my mares would have looked terrible and I would have had to hide them away, but I’m not selling the mares, right? De-worming and vaccinations - skip it. We’ll de-worm like they used to. Once in the spring, once in the fall. I just saved myself a BUNCH there, as well. Grain? Nah…they’re on pasture! I’m one of those that doesn’t keep horses in stalls unless they’re injured or for the couple days pre and post foaling, so that’s not really an issue. There “is” a happy medium, but there is also some bare essentials that many of the facilities that run large numbers of horses in huge bands neglect.

Additionally, some of the comments about not comparing apples to apples don’t hold true either. Just because we breed warmbloods does NOT put us in an elitist category. I deal with a LOT of top dollar breeds in all walks of the industry. They deal with the exact issues we are. Take a trip down to Carol Rose or Babcock Ranch for a look at how high end Quarter Horses are bred. Go out to Shelbyville, Tennessee to check out the top Tennessee Walking Horses. Kentucky for Thoroughbreds…and so on. The flip side is that some of those industries have such a HUGE number of horses produced every year, that the horses that don’t cut it in their particular industry can be purchased for a song! Heck, the Quarter Horse mare we purchased as a jump/tease mare (she’s been ovarectomized) cost us a “whopping” $510.00 at an auction. Nice mare, fully registered, trained to the hilt…$510.00!!! I didn’t have to deworm her, train her, feed her, vaccinate her, etc. for the first few years of her life and that alone would have cost the $510.00 we paid for her!

It’s a law of averages. If you don’t make much money on one horse, you better be recouping your investment on another one. We can argue until the cows come home (or horses :smiley: ) but the bottom line is that yeah, I can cut corners here and there and not have it impact things…maybe. Skip a de-worming here and there. Don’t vaccinate another year. But, at some point, those cost cutting savings may end up costing more in the long run. And, quality does pay! You can also, as County noted, spread some of the expenses over many animals - but remember that you’ll have additional costs and overhead doing that. So, you’ll save some on each individual animal, but you’ll have the additional expenses of more animals.

Kathy St.Martin
Equine Reproduction Short Courses
http://www.equine-reproduction.com

#102

Most breeders take these things into account when pricing a foal, not just actual expenses.

Pedigree of the foal.
Conformation of the foal.
Yes, there are ones that are not what we expected or hoped for.
Most of us discount to the perfect home (hopefully).
Discount to performance homes.
Discount to repeat buyers.
and so on.
I have been very grateful and happy that most of my foals have gone to wonderful homes, so with that said, I want to Thank also the wonderful buyers and owners out there.:yes::yes::yes::yes:

#103

so 10% of that foal’s cost is due to shavings??? turn that baby out!

#104

and as you know the down side to the “cheapness” of non urban/subdivision living is that those super cheap foals (invariably) must go to some subdivision/farmette sales or training barn to be seen…it is the rare person who will fly 1000 miles from their home to look at one foal being sold off a video…no matter how fancy schmancy he is…(and this can and does add thousands to the price required to break even…)

   and what are the horror stories of just such trips ??? we all have them....

                         the bottom line is to know your bottom line....when my FP looks at me in Jan and says "you will need $160 a ton for &lt;insert hay field number&gt; across the year to break even" then we consider if it is [B]even possible [/B]to sell such  hay at X price...

                    if there is[B] no way in the world [/B]that our fixed inputs can come down to a level such that the hay can break even we must as a business go another route with &lt;insert hay field number&gt;....

     Tamara in TN
#105

Black Forest, that is a model I agree with (and I’ve said so before). It’s what is missing in some of these arguments, perhaps because soooo many folks seem to think that every foal they produce is worth X amount. Like the OP on the $10K weanling thread said, everyone’s foal is a great mover with an excellent temperament, yada, yada, yada. If it were THAT easy to produce all of those desireable traits, this would be a different industry entirely.

Fact is, everyone produces duds (although some, due to their circumstances, can sell even a dud for good money–but that’s has nothing to do with breeding) and has huge losses due to unforseen circumstances. Everyone has foals die, mares die, etc. But if you plan only to produce foals that earn a profit by covering their expenses and a little more–if you DO sell $10K+ weanlings that you’ve put $10K into–then even that model isn’t going to work because of those dead, deformed or otherwise defficient weanlings that consume more profit that the sold ones produce.

IMO, the only way to make it in this business is by going for the windfall. IMO, the windfall is also the very best way to improve the quality of your stock and also contribute to the betterment of your breed or your discipline-based type. And I know there are breeders, even here, who have their eye on that, although maybe they don’t call it what I do.

Anyway, this is why I’m irked by the idea of the $10K weanling. I simply do not believe that the vast, vast, vast majority of breeders (not the select few who, again, can sell even a cull for a profit) in dressage or any other discipline come even close to selling $10K weanlings. I DO believe that far too many breeders put that much into their weanlings. And I DO believe that far too few breeders produce–to put it bluntly–enough winners to make up for the losers. Why not? Because too few breeders have a plan to produce winners. And who knows? Maybe the reason for that is because they put too much effort into trying to sell weanlings and yearlings to buyers who don’t exist?

#106

Many WB breeders are unaware of any other equine industry. We think $3,000 is a hefty stud fee. Browse through some QH sites of the top breeders. Same with some of the fancy Arabians.

Sure, you can find QH and Arabians in the sales sites for $1500 OBO.

That’s just one end of their market.

I don’t tally up my expenses and price accordingly. We have to be very aware of what the market is willing to spend. I think there is a concensus that $10K is a reasonable ballpark figure for a nice WB weanling, with a swing of $2500 either way. Some individuals will go for more, maybe $15-20K. Some will go for less but not happily so.

Also, presentation matters. I remember someone going to NorCal to shop for horses. Our mutual trainer preferred a horse at a small breeder’s farm, but the buyer bought at Glenwood. The white wraps, braids and general presentation were very convincing. And all that classy presentation costs the owners a lot of money, and that was factored in the price.

#107

[QUOTE=GreekDressageQueen;2605166]
What about breeders than own their own stallion? What about mares that are kept outside and don’t need shavings or hay. What about multiple mare discounts or premium mare discounts where the semen cost can drop to $800 a pop? Since we are talking about weanlings, should inspection costs even be considered? I don’t disagree that breeding is expensive and some foals cost a lot to get on the ground, but these numbers aren’t true for everyone.[/QUOTE]

It is MORE expensive if you own your own stallion! Then you also have the upkeep and all the costs of keeping a stallion! If you think raising a weanling is expensive, you should try standing a stallion, even if you only use him to breed your own mares.

#108

Good work LaNet.

We also can figure big five figure numbers on the performance mares and stallions imported and the 5 figure import fees (vans, air, vans, quarantine, and more vans) to get them to your farm.

Up unitl last month, I was paying $120 per round bale and that was buying them 10 at a time.

The price of corn per bushel is up 65% in May '07 over May '06, so feed costs have risen dramatically.

The excessive rain are keeping the cost of hay up becaue farmers are not gettting the number of cuttings thi year…so it isn’t so much better than last year…and again, the corn for gas instead of food is driving the costs up again.

I think anyone who thinks we over-charge for young horses and make out like bandit should just go ahead and buy the airline ticket and go buy in Europe.

Donna Ray
Carson Farm
www.carson-farm.com

#109

Very true. One of my clients pays up to $5,500 for stud fees on her mares to top arab stallions. She is gambling on getting a top foal to sell for $25,000 as a weanling/yearling or $40,000 started. She does get that much for some and others she will give away. She doesn’t expect everyone to pay a price that covers her costs for all of them. They are priced by quality, breeding and talent. She breeds for the Park and Pleasure show market for arabs and NSH foals. If I were to guess I’ll bet she has $12,000 -$15,000 in some of them by the time they are weaned. It’s a whole different market than the “average” arabs for certain…

I don’t think anyone here is saying that a top WB foal is not worth $10,000. To the right buyer, I’m sure they are. What I disagree with is the concept that all WB foals should be worth $10,000 because that is what they cost someone to produce.

#110

How do you figure that? My stallion costs me about $1,000 a year to keep like all my other horses. I do some advertising which I make back in Stud fees and I breed my own mares to him. He more than pays his own way.

He also lives out 24/7 and is very happy living with his mares/foals. He eats the same as his mares. He requires no special fencing or care.

He is being campaigned pretty heavy right now for promotion for our breed and we just got back from Kentucky Horse Park on Monday where he was in the Parade of Breeds. :smiley:

#111

I’m not a trainer, so training costs are very expensive for a stallion and most stallions do live separately from other horses. Mine will live happily with a gelding buddy but he injured himself on the fencing (wire squares with a board on top - cut his pastern) and now lives separately until we can afford to re-fence the field. Advertising, even if done modestly is expensive and so is competing. I have to have facilities for visiting mares coming in for live cover and be there for the vet and care for the mare (I only charge $10 per day for mare care and it does not begin to cover it). He eats more than the other horses :slight_smile: I’ve got some inquiries for shipped semen so now he’ll have to be trained for that. My hubby’s time when we do live cover because I can’t do it by myself! Etc., etc. :slight_smile:

#112

I guess training costs are a big difference for us. I ride and train him myself. I do work with an FEI trainer but I am capable of starting youngsters myself. I also ride him and show him myself. My expectations are not to go to the olympics with him but he’s capable of FEI dressage and hopefully we will get there someday. :winkgrin: We did blow some folks away at KY Horse Park last weekend with him and he made me very proud to be his Mom. I’d post pics but I’m afraid I’d be breaking the brag rules then…bummer!

Most of our outside breedings are AI…I had one mare come onto our farm for live cover this year. Again…I board also so I’m set up for it…so not a big deal for me. My day costs are $12.50 a day for a stall and turnout and that covers my costs pretty well. Our part of VA is less expensive than yours land cost wise but if I didn’t bring in my hay in bulk, I’d be hurting. The cost of everything is going up so my board prices may have to go up also…there’s just no point of operating at a loss…I’d rather be a hobby and work a cushy office job than board horses at a loss…

Training for collection is not cheap but I capitalized it into the cost of my stallion as it added considerable value to him…training should be handled the same way. You eventually do realize all those costs but you depreciate it over a set time…say 7-10 years or whatever you and your accountant decide to do. Sure…it’s still cash flow and money out of your pocket but it doesn’t have the same effect on the bottom line as if you expense all of it.

#113

Let’s also not forget that the large majority of foals priced at ten k and up are sired by frozen semen stallions…and you don’t get a discount here if your mare is sps or elite. You also pay btw 900-1500 per dose if you are using the top stallions, and you may likely do this two or three times per season, per mare.
If the foal is not sired by frozen semen, and it is priced around this mark…ie using stallions like Roussaeu, Royal Prince, Liberty Gold, Fabuluex…the real cream of the crop, top liscensced stallions available fresh, then you are looking at a stud fee of AT LEAST 2000…often more, and your discount is usually not more than a few hundred buck…so I have no idea where the 800 came from???
Also, in this breeding cost list, lets not forget she has only factored in the costs for ONE cycle. Most mares don’t catch on the first cycle, and so you need to factor in another 1000 bucks per cycle, that is what it costs us up here with shipping, collection and vet fees.

#114

I just thought I would throw in what it cost me to breed my TB mare who went to Iroko.

Stud Fee 950euros
Keep 9 days 45 euros (at stud farm)
Vet fees all in 200 euros
Before hand vet fees appox 150 euros
Feeding 4months, 3 before and one after foal born 420 euros
Feeding before last trimester and until foal weaned 720 euros
Vacs 155 euros
worming 150 euros including foal til weaned
Hay approx 600 euros
Barley Straw for approx 3 months 300 euros

Total 3,690 euros minus 200 off stud fee from previous year when mare not in foal.

So it cost me 3500 euros to get foal to weaning, I’m guessing 5,000 US
My mares don’t come in til about a month before foaling. They are blanketed and start coming up to a pen at night starting Nov 1st, with hay.
Mares are in with their foals until about May 1st depending on our weather.

We don’t have all the collection costs. Vet fees are sometimes cheaper too. But perhaps this is why people think they are getting a good deal over in Europe. But, why go through all the hassel with the darn shipping back?

I try not to keep them in too much, it just depends on the weather and I think we are much luckier when it comes to grazing. Really we have all year round grass. The quality isn’t great in the winter but it is something to eat during the day so we only have to hay at night.

We don’t have inspections here so not an issue. But if we did I would go.

Just a comparison. Oh I forgot about 150 euros for the foal for his tests and such and check over. Won’t start vacs until he/she is weaned

Terri

#115

Our horses stay out too on pastures, but we also bring them in when its 100 degrees, raining or such and take care of them. None of my foals are left to fend for themselves in bad conditions, nor are my pregnant mares. We have to protect our investments.

#116

[QUOTE=Renae;2605579]
If you can raise colts so cheaply why are you complaining about how much colts cost, just buy a broodmare and raise your own :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

If you were following the previous post “Why should I pay 10k for a weanling” you would already know that I do have a broodmare and raise my own. I even sat down and ran the numbers myself and I still didn’t spend more than 5k for each baby. I even board my mare and pay 1500 for the semen. However, I am not in the business of selling nor do I own a breeding farm so yes, my overhead is less and my costs are different compared to others on this BB.

I think we can all agree that everybody’s costs will be different. Some on this board spend 10k plus to get each baby on the ground and others pay far less. However, most of the babies I see for sale are priced around the same amount. Seems like you either need a new business plan or move to a cheaper area, otherwise, if you accept breeding horses and losing money as a “labor of love” then expect to give away some of the babies in the “name of love” too. Not every baby is going to recoup your costs and some will pay for two.

#117

Maybe the reason for that is because they put too much effort into trying to sell weanlings and yearlings to buyers who don’t exist?

Most breeders I know dont have trouble selling their young stock. I guess that is what happens with less elaborate types. :lol:

#118

For one, I dont need to keep up the the Jones. I do my own thing. I dont bend to pressure of the type your talking of.
Two, I dont think you have ever been to our farm, but, I for one am very happy with it.
http://www.spindletopfarm.net/us.htm
We have tons of land for the horses to run on (you can see some of it here, but the pic could not take the whole farm of coarse). We have a nice 10 stall barn and our horses are safe, happy and sound. And, its paid for…! I could not be happier with it! :smiley:

#119

Hay ripped us apart last year and the year before. The drought hurt us bad. My costs went up a lot due to hay and feed costs. Normally the horses do well on the fields with the forage, but I had to throw hay for so long! sigh

#120

OK so how do you keep any horse for a year for a mear 1K???
Do you not include vet costs (shots, breeding/collection), farrier, hay or grain in that total? If your horse is out of state what about shipping costs, stabling, paperwork (coggins, healt certs)?
Just my farrier alone is at least a quarter of that per year per horse and that is for trims.

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