Thoroughbred in the "old timers"

Elles · August 12, 2020, 6:50am

Even in those older, heavier warmbloods there was already quite a lot of TB blood present in their pedigrees. People in Holland say that that type of TB was a different type of TB from today’s TB. We will never know for certain what kind of horse that old time TB was, neither do we know what kind of horse that old time warmblood was.

Horses in the pedigree of this horse, GRALSRITTER
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=632757&blood=10&quota=
HANN DE331310413065
hengst 1965 bruin 1.65m
ggk: HANN
XX/OX percentage: 25,59%

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=695669&blood=10&quota=
Goldfisch II

breed Hannoverian
color Black
sex stallion
height 169 cm ~ 16.2.½ hands
date of birth 1935
land of birth DE Germany
land of standing DE Germany
life number 310313735
owner Landgestüt Celle
xx/ox 74.48%

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=40702&blood=10&quota=
Flusspat

breed Hannoverian
color Bay
sex female
height
date of birth 1933
land of birth DE Germany
land of standing DE Germany
breed awards State Premium Mare
life number 312428333
family number Han 1157

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=592199&blood=10&quota=
Duellant

breed Hannoverian
color Chestnut
sex stallion
height 163 cm ~ 16.0 hands
date of birth 1943
land of birth DE Germany
land of standing DE Germany
life number DE331310358643
level of progeny Dressage: 4-Dr1
Showjumpers: 2-Sj7
family number Han 628
breeder W.Wedemeyer
owner
xx/ox 70.34%

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=185022&blood=10&quota=
Försterfarm

breed Hannoverian
color Chestnut
sex female
height
date of birth 1946
land of birth DE Germany
land of standing DE Germany
breed awards State Premium Mare
life number 315066746
family number Han 827

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=717304&blood=10&quota=
Futurist I

breed Hannoverian
color Bay
sex stallion
height 168 cm ~ 16.2 hands
date of birth 1933
land of birth DE Germany
land of standing DE Germany
life number 310306333
family number Han 793

xx/ox 84.77%
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=415957&blood=10&quota=
Talwiese

breed Hannoverian
color Brown
sex female
height
date of birth 1936
land of birth DE Germany
land of standing DE Germany
life number 312812836
family number Han 456

xx/ox 81.52%
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=674039&blood=10&quota=
Athos

breed Hannoverian
color Bay
sex stallion
height 168 cm ~ 16.2 hands
date of birth 1938
land of birth DE Germany
land of standing
life number 310324838

xx/ox 65.51%
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=664233&blood=10&quota=
Moorhexe

breed Hannoverian
color Chestnut
sex female
height
date of birth 1939
land of birth DE Germany
land of standing
life number 313391939

Elles · August 27, 2020, 11:34am

http://www.ownerbreeder.co.uk/2011/08/the-breed-stays-further-faster/
http://www.pedigreequery.com/workforce
One would think that the Thoroughbreds that were later used within the warmblood studbooks might even have been better than the earlier ones.

Elles · August 27, 2020, 11:34am

http://www.gopura-xx.com/sportpferd-riding-horse/blutlinien-die-springen-blood-lines-that-jump/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Leger_Stakes
http://www.pedigreequery.com/simple+verse
http://www.pedigreequery.com/kingston+hill2
http://www.pedigreequery.com/leading+light4
http://www.pedigreequery.com/encke2

http://thebreed.thethoroughbred.com.au/feature/staying-the-distance
Breeding a stayer is not the issue—training one is.
The French-bred Melbourne Cup winner, Dunaden, could easily have been born in Australia. Dunaden has a terrible pedigree—he’s the only Stakes winner under the first EIGHT dams and the only Stakes winner by his sprinter/miler sire, Nicobar, a son of the speed influence Indian Ridge.
Dunaden, who cost only 1500 euro as a weanling because of his shoddy family, could easily have come from any farm in Australia. In his case, he was lucky that people along the way recognised his talent and his good attitude, but more importantly he was trained to stay.
His owners didn’t need to be especially patient, as the little horse raced as a late-season two-year-old, like many Australian horses.
It’s the attitude towards teaching horses to stay that needs to change, not breeding stayers.
Top New Zealand trainer John Wheeler made his name in Australia in the 1980s with two Australian-bred “speed” horses he bought in Australia, Our Poetic Prince (by Yeats from a Biscay mare) and Flying Luskin (by Luskin Star from an Authentic Heir mare). Our Poetic Prince won a Group 1 Cox Plate (2040m) and a Group 1 Tancred Stakes (2400m)—now The BMW—while Flying Luskin won a Group 1 Wellington Cup (3200m).
Wheeler told me that he believed that most horses could be trained to stay, or at least trained to get more ground than their pedigrees might suggest. Both Our Poetic Prince and Flying Luskin, according to Wheeler, were trained to stay.
Maybe we should pay the great Bart Cummings or Australia’s best-credentialled “strapper”, Lee Freedman, to take some seminars on how to train a Melbourne Cup winner. Not the worst idea I have come up with.
At the moment, Australia has more high-class staying sires than ever before, headed by Epsom Derby winners New Approach and Authorized, So You Think’s sire High Chaparral, Shocking’s sire Street Cry and recent additions such as French Derby winner Lope De Vega and Victoria Derby winner Monaco Consul.
We also have some of the best Sir Tristram and Zabeel bloodlines in our female families, so there is no excuse that our breeding industry is ignorant of stayers, although there certainly is an unhealthy push from breeders and racing administrators towards precocious speed.

cloudyandcallie · August 27, 2020, 11:37am

Samber had the KY TB stallion War Relic in his bloodline.
Inschallah had French TBs in his bloodline.
The Ky TBs that went to Germany to refine the WB mares were the same "“type” of TBs that have continued to be bred there.
I do not know much about French TB breeding. (Other than my Hessen’s maternal greatgrandsire was Inschallah…and his paternal grandsire was Samber.)

Elles · August 27, 2020, 11:37am

To get an impression :https://www.google.nl/search?sclient=tablet-gws&site=&source=hp&q=elevage+pur+sang+anglais&oq=elevage+pur+sang+angoais&gs_l=tablet-gws.1.0.0i13l3.3172.21035.0.23982.25.15.0.10.10.0.141.1635.2j13.15.0....0...1c.1.64.tablet-gws..0.23.1570.0.1UZWeWl2VfA#q=elevage+pur+sang+anglais+haras http://www.france-sire.com/actu_etablissement-10446-arc_treve_a_l_aube_de_l_exploit_que_meme_son_eleveur_n_a_jamais_vu.php

Willesdon · August 27, 2020, 11:39am

You might be interested in this analysis http://www.tbheritage.com/HistoricSires/JumpSires/JumpShowroots.html

TB Heritage is a really interesting website!

vineyridge · August 27, 2020, 11:39am

Central and Eastern European royalty bought the best English TBs that they could get their hands on when they decided to “improve” their native breeds back before WWI. English Triple Crown winner Galtee More was sold to Russia and then to Germany around the turn of the twentieth century. Galtee More’s half brother Ard Patrick was also sold to Germany. He was almost as accomplished a race horse as his brother. He beat Sceptre in the Epsom Derby in his three year old year and both Sceptre and Rock Sand in the Eclipse Stakes in his 4 year old year. Dark Ronald is the third great stallion sent to Germany in that period, but he was much less accomplished as a classic race horse–he only raced five or so times in his entire career and won only two or three. Sold to Germany in 1914, Dark Ronald was almost a breeding generation later than the other two. All three stood at the Imperial (or in Dark Ronald’s case after WWI, the State) Stud at Graditz. I would suppose that Wilhelm II would have gone for English TBs instead of French ones since his grandmother, Q Victoria, and uncle, Edward VII, bred and raced them.

If you look at German pedigrees going back, you will see plenty of the great English classic winners Galtee More and Ard Patrick in the German TB sires used to create the warmblood. They both were among the very best race horses in the world when they went abroad.

Graditz ended up in East Germany, and the Russians stole all their horses in WWII.

Elles · August 27, 2020, 11:40am

vineyridge · August 27, 2020, 11:41am

What you have to understand about French TBs is that for almost a hundred years, they (and the United States) were the only place where Herod lines were preserved. Herod was overwhelmed by Eclipse sire lines in the UK and Ireland very early on and his sire line died out there for almost one hundred years. It was briefly revived by Roi Herode and and The Tetrarch (Le Sancy line) and Tourbillon (Dollar) but virtually died out again, so that Ahonoora descendants are the only Herod sire line still active in most of the world.

Cleveland Bays are also found in the foundations of Holsteiners; not so much in Hanoverians.

Elles · August 27, 2020, 11:41am

Cleveland Bay crossed with Thoroughbred was a Yorkshire coach horse. A lot of those (heavy) coach horses had a high percentage of TB.

Elles · August 27, 2020, 11:45am

http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/16569?levels=8
JAGDKONIGIN
HOLST 210883110
mare 1910 brown
XX/OX rate: 38,48%

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=46846&blood=10&quota=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=580129&blood=10&quota=

With all the TB horses used within the warmblood studbooks these last two centuries, can one still speak of an F1 breeding when one uses a TB nowadays?

vineyridge · August 27, 2020, 11:47am

[QUOTE=Elles;8502518]
http://www.horsetelex.com/horses/pedigree/16569?levels=8
JAGDKONIGIN
HOLST 210883110
mare 1910 brown
XX/OX rate: 38,48%

http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=46846&blood=10&quota=
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=580129&blood=10&quota=

With all the TB horses used within the warmblood studbooks these last two centuries, can one still speak of an F1 breeding when one uses a TB nowadays?[/QUOTE]

If you go back a few more generations, you will see that virtually all the WB lines end up with a TB sire.

Elles · August 27, 2020, 11:47am

http://home.iae.nl/users/lijssel/nederlnd/The%20Origins%20of%20the%20Warmblood%20Horse_files/body_origin_warmblood.html

Elles · August 27, 2020, 11:50am

About the old time Holsteiners:
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/loretto-analysis.html
http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/cavalier-royale.html

An example of an old time French horse:
http://www.sporthorse-data.com/d?i=205586&blood=10&quota=

OBdB · August 27, 2020, 11:50am

Now that’s an interesting discussion.

Like already said, most sire-lines on WB have as origin a TB-sire.

The question for today is, what is the influence of this oldtimers, what is necessary for modern WB.

The influence of these oldtimers is zero ! Because they are found 10 generations back, or even more. What is the influence of 1 horse out of 1000 ? That is if it appears only one time. But even line-breeding or even inbreeding do not change the basic question.
There is a tendency in WB that, without infusion of improvement genitors (in this sense TB or AA), makes horse heavier the further you go.
You can see this in some of the leading sire-lines today and / or in the crossing guidelines given by their owners.
Capitol was a ‘normal’ stallion until the HOL SB gave out the direction that he had to be crossed with mares by Corde or a TB. That started the process which let him to be the crosspoint of one of the most important sires for modern WB.
Diamant de Semilly is out of a 2. mother by a TB. Already his sire, Le Tot was out of a mare inbred 2x3 on Ultimate. And again his sire, Grand Veneur, was out of half blood by Le Mioche (TB). Looking in the other direction, one of the successful sons of DdS is Kalaska who is out of daughter of the very good N&D.
Cor de la Bryere, son of Rantzau and great grandson of Furioso made the HOL what it is nowadays (with help from Ladykiller, Cottage Son, etc). But what is HIS influence (as an individual) nowadays ?

In my opinion, there can be no modern WB breeding without infusion of TB. Because there is one common point in the stallions mentioned above : they all need a mare with TB blood. That’s especially clear in DdS and his descendants and ancestors and for Capitol.

But using a TB nowadays is a problem, because nobody (or better said : too few) will buy a TB descendant. Why ?
There is also the problem of conformation. Using a TB induces accepting the TB heritage, and TB were never selected on conformation. So there is a splitting of phaenotyps to which the WB-breeders are not acustomed. Evidently, it also depends on the phaenotyp of the TB used.
The working of the WB SB is, the licensing of selected males for the breeding. As they (the members of the commissions) know a bit about WB, generaly there is no or little problem. But what do they know about TB licensing for WB ? What do they know about TBs ingeneral ?
In Germany, you have to add the problem of the GAG into the mix. A TB licensed for WB had to have a GAG of 75/80 otherwise he would have to go through the testing, indirect competition to WBs.
So how do they choose TBs for WB improoving ? nobody knows really …

Elles · August 27, 2020, 11:50am

But using a TB nowadays is a problem, because nobody (or better said : too few) will buy a TB descendant. Why ?

This might answer your question:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?437020-TB-kills-the-jump

OBdB · August 27, 2020, 11:51am

[QUOTE=Elles;8504279]
This might answer your question:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?437020-TB-kills-the-jump[/QUOTE]

and we all know that that is a big big bunch of BS !

Elles · August 27, 2020, 11:53am

Well, there are lots of people who think otherwise…

Cumano · August 27, 2020, 11:53am

[QUOTE=OBdB;8504550]
and we all know that that is a big big bunch of BS ![/QUOTE]

I don’t think anyone wants to start this fifty something pages debate all over again, but instead of saying that the opinion of a lot of very knowledgeable and respected breeders is BS, go read and try to understand the arguments. Then you can comment, and this time, with counterarguments instead of short sensless uninformed insults.

Dressagelvr · August 27, 2020, 11:53am

Exactly. I’m not sure what OP is trying to prove by posting essentially the same topic over and over again.

People have responded ad nauseum the ways in which older TBs differ from most of the current models. Also, that English and other, heavier TBs were used in the older WB lines. And that they are now so far back as to be incidental.

You like TBs. We get it already.

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