Thoroughbreds Without Mr. Prospector, Native Dancer, or Seattle Slew

[PeteyPie]

A thread on another forum about Mr. Prospector horses got me thinking about this topic. Of my four horses, three had none of the influences/crosses listed in the title above, and the fourth has one instance of Native Dancer five generations back.

Because I have succumbed to that normal tendency to think that my horses are extra special, I have followed with interest all the literature about the benefits of outcrosses to the stallions listed above. I also rue the fact that it seems really hard these days to find any horse without those stallions in their pedigrees.

Do any of you look for horses which do not have Mr. P, Native Dancer or Seattle Slew, or do you base your racing and breeding choices on other factors? Do you think it is important to maintain outcrosses free of those lines?

Of course I am expecting all comments to reflect how superior my mares are.

Edit to add: a list of stallions is on post #28

[LaurieB]

The reason those stallions are in so many TB pedigrees is because they were really prepotent sires. That’s a good thing, not a bad thing. In any equine discipline, breeders look for sires that are most likely to produce successful offspring–and those horses did a great job of it.

I’m always baffled when people say they are looking for TBs without those influences. Why?

[PeteyPie]

@LaurieB

The reason those stallions are in so many TB pedigrees is because they were really prepotent sires. That’s a good thing, not a bad thing. In any equine discipline, breeders look for sires that are most likely to produce successful offspring–and those horses did a great job of it.

I’m always baffled when people say they are looking for TBs without those influences. Why?

Because my mares are superior.

[Texarkana]

@PeteyPie

Because my mares are superior.

I think you’re saying this in jest, but… since so many people strongly feel this way, it bears repeating…

They may be superior to you, but if they were purpose-bred for racing, they weren’t “superior” race horses or breeding stock. If they were, you wouldn’t have them. That doesn’t mean they aren’t exceptional for your purposes and am in no way trashing your mares… I know I’d come at someone who trash talked my girls. :lol:

Random aside:

Mr. P is the most fascinating stallion; every day I become more in awe of him. There is this misconception that he threw a prepotent “type” that was a carbon copy of himself, wonky conformation and all. But that couldn’t be farther from the truth. His sons and daughters are among the most diverse in the modern breed, with the common denominator being speed. Sure, there are some that favor him strongly or inherited some of his weaknesses, but many of them look like clones of their dams’ breeding, just faster. I personally believe the Mr. P get who show predominately Mr. P physical characteristics are a smaller population than those who don’t. I’ve gotten in the habit of basically ignoring him in a pedigree and focusing on who he was crossed with.

Seattle Slew would have faded into pedigree obscurity if it weren’t for AP Indy.

[skydy]

OP, were your horses successful on the track? Animal Kingdom has Native Dancer through Northern Dancer but fairly far back. No Mr. P. or Seattle Slew. Are your any of horses from his sire line? He was a very successful race horse.

[amb]

From the perspective of someone interested in these horses for their second career:

@PeteyPie

Do any of you look for horses which do not have Mr. P, Native Dancer or Seattle Slew, or do you base your racing and breeding choices on other factors? Do you think it is important to maintain outcrosses free of those lines?

I’m a huge fan of Sir Ivor progeny, but I sure don’t see many. I’ve ridden a bunch of Mr. P horses (hard to avoid, really) and I appreciate their flat racing success but they haven’t done it for me. I wouldn’t say I absolutely avoid the sires you list, but as modern US Thoroughbreds get more and more focused on a particular type I find myself looking more and more for the oddballs who don’t fit in.

Of course I am expecting all comments to reflect how superior my mares are.

Your mares are awesome!

[PeteyPie]

@amb

From the perspective of someone interested in these horses for their second career:

I’m a huge fan of Sir Ivor progeny, but I sure don’t see many. I’ve ridden a bunch of Mr. P horses (hard to avoid, really) and I appreciate their flat racing success but they haven’t done it for me. I wouldn’t say I absolutely avoid the sires you list, but as modern US Thoroughbreds get more and more focused on a particular type I find myself looking more and more for the oddballs who don’t fit in.

Your mares are awesome!

Thank you!

I think so too, even if they were slow…

Actually, one of my mares had great potential as a broodmare, tons of black type. She was injured before racing but her full siblings who raced were winners, graded stakes placed, one held a track record, and she had a full sister who bore several winners including a multiple grade 1 winning colt. I am not a breeder but I think she had greatness… Don’t we all fall in love with the dream of grand possibilities with our Thoroughbreds? Anyway, I could go on for pages with excuses about why she could have been great but wasn’t (starting with the fact that her broodmare career was cut short when I got her). Just humor me and go with it.

So, to answer the questions in this thread about my particular mares (which are all awesome) no, they might not be the best examples of outcrosses, but the idea of other lines seems like a good one.

[PeteyPie]

@skydy

OP, were your horses successful on the track? Animal Kingdom has Native Dancer through Northern Dancer but fairly far back. No Mr. P. or Seattle Slew. Are your any of horses from his sire line? He was a very successful race horse.

Were mine successful? Not particularly. One never raced because of a broken pelvis early in her career, one made about $100K in almost 60 starts so she was a hard knocker, but I don’t know if that fits your idea of successful. Her daughter earned around $85K in 29 starts.

To define “successful,” I’ve read that $100K is about the minimum number to pay the bills, and a broodmare should ideally have some stakes places or wins.

My last mare was definitely NOT successful in any way, shape, or form; she never won any of her few races and she was never bred to a Thoroughbred. But she’s got two crosses of Ack Ack and looks exactly like him: a dark little horse with attitude. She’s adorable and a little bit evil. That makes her special to me. She’s by Lost Code.

My other horses’ top lines are Broad Brush, It’s Freezing, and Friendly Lover. I’ve been pretty loud on this forum about my admiration for Broad Brush in particular.

A sad note is that I keep talking about “my horses” and including them all, but I only have two now; my Broad Brush mare died last fall at the age of 25 and this spring, I had to put down the mare by It’s Freezing. It’s hard to believe they are gone.

[Texarkana]

PeteyPie, if you are truly interested in replacing your outcrossy stock, follow some of the Calumet stallions. They probably have the largest collection of stallions in North America without Mr P, Native Dancer, Slew… though by “largest” I mean “more than one.” Although they do have several more with limited numbers of crosses and a lot of outside influence. And now that they’ve brought their advertised fees back to planet reality, they are accessible.

[LaurieB]

PeteyPie, if you are ever looking to replace your Broad Brush mare, check out the offspring of his son Include. I have seen some really nice sporthorse types by him (and owned two.)

[Saffron_Rose]

I have an ex racehorse who - so far as I know, I haven’t looked that far back - has none of the horses mentioned in the title in his pedigree. He was a pretty crap racehorse though :'D

[Texarkana]

Another irony of trying to avoid these 3 sires is that in young thoroughbreds of modern breeding, these sires are becoming too far back to even show up on the 5 generation pedigree.

Kind of like when I see ads touting things like, “no Northern Dancer or Mr. P,” then you pull the horse’s breeding see Nijinsky, Lyphard, Gone West, and Miswaki in the 5th generation. :lol:

[PeteyPie]

@Texarkana

PeteyPie, if you are truly interested in replacing your outcrossy stock, follow some of the Calumet stallions. They probably have the largest collection of stallions in North America without Mr P, Native Dancer, Slew… though by “largest” I mean “more than one.” Although they do have several more with limited numbers of crosses and a lot of outside influence. And now that they’ve brought their advertised fees back to planet reality, they are accessible.

Thank you, I will follow those horses. As I said, I am not a breeder myself, so I never planned on doing anything with my mares but one can’t help but dream, What If? And of course, it is fun and interesting to follow the careers of my horses’ progeny and relatives. When I got my first mare, the Broad Brush mare, I didn’t know or care about her breeding but when I studied it, I couldn’t help but get interested in her pedigree and then, invested in her potential, kind of like rooting for the home team.

And then, in thinking about outcrosses, there are the interesting conversations about keeping alive the Godolphin Arabian and Byerly Turk lines.

And back to my mares: it was a fun coincidence that years ago at a Kentucky Derby party, I had picked Broad Brush to win. He lost to Ferdinand. As an aside, the host picked Ferdinand and said, “I’m going with Willy Shoemaker. Always pick the jockey,” and he was right in that one instance. But I kind of marveled that I ended up with a daughter of Broad Brush.

[PeteyPie]

@LaurieB

PeteyPie, if you are ever looking to replace your Broad Brush mare, check out the offspring of his son Include. I have seen some really nice sporthorse types by him (and owned two.)

Thank you, you little enabler you! I need another horse like I need a divorce!

I love Include. When my husband and I were in Kentucky a few years ago we visited Airdrie Stud. I called to ask if I could see Include, explaining that I owned a Broad Brush mare and was a fan, not a breeder. They were incredibly kind and let us see him, even though they had nothing to gain and it was not the best time of year for them to show stallions. It was something really memorable.

I’m going to Del Mar today and looking forward to seeing One Fast Broad in a mile turf race. She is a granddaughter of Mr. Broad Blade. Speaking of sport horse types, he’s gorgeous.

[Texarkana]

Apart from Include (who does have Native Dancer through his dam), some other stallions to follow:

The aforementioned Aikenite at Calumet. Musketier, Bal A Bali, and Snapy Halo each only have 1x Native Dancer. Their regional stallion Lentenor also only has 1x through Mr. P.

Hat Trick was standing in KY for several years, but I think they left him down south. K One King is back in Kentucky, with a single dose of Native Dancer in his third generation.

Big Drama in Florida. Field Commission only has 1x Native Dancer.

Kafwain in California. Acclamation, Einstein, and Southern Image only have 1x Native Dancer.

Orientate in Maryland. He was recently pensioned, but he has a lot of offspring out there all over the place.

Favorite Bid in Ohio landed himself at a farm that’s going to start shipping semen for sporthorses and outcrosses. That’s really what he needs to be doing…

These are just stallions I can think of now…

It’s not a fools errand to try to find a horse without any of the three, but I’ll never be convinced to avoid any of the three stallions personally.

[Texarkana]

I racked my brain listing the active stallions I could think of without the 3 sires. Then my post was unapproved. Maybe it will magically appear someday.

[OceanCurrents]

There’s a number of quality stallions without, or without extensive usage, of any of these stallions in their pedigree. One that immediately comes to mind is Leonnatus Anteas by Storm Cat’s son, Stormy Atlantic.

But then as in breeding any quality Thoroughbreds it takes research. More than just looking at the fancy names in a pedigree. More than saying oh it’s that a pretty dappled grey, he’ll go beautifully with my chestnut mare. It’s way I had the recent stud book open on my kitchen table for an entire week so not just myself but family members, also versed in horses, could give their option on the stallion I chose. You got to consider everything & if you haven’t the patience or knowledge then don’t necessarily expect any foals that’ll be the next Triple Crown winners.

And no offense, don’t kid yourself. What your mare’s siblings have done is irrelevant as the mare may just have the fortune of being born a dub. I’ve seen many mares with nice pedigree who barely make peanuts on the tracks bred all because their relatives are golden & they aren’t even worth bronze.

[Simkie]

@OceanCurrents

There’s a number of quality stallions without, or without extensive usage, of any of these stallions in their pedigree. One that immediately comes to mind is Leonnatus Anteas by Storm Cat’s son, Stormy Atlantic.

Nope. Stormy Atlantic is out of a Seattle Slew mare. And Leonnatus Anteas is 4x5 Native Dancer. I guess he’s a good example of how some of these sires aren’t on the page anymore, though.

Or are you thinking of someone else?

[LaurieB]

@OceanCurrents

And no offense, don’t kid yourself. What your mare’s siblings have done is irrelevant as the mare may just have the fortune of being born a dub. I’ve seen many mares with nice pedigree who barely make peanuts on the tracks bred all because their relatives are golden & they aren’t even worth bronze.

Well no, not really. A strong female family is a great indicator of what a mare might be able to produce. All those “golden” relatives do matter. Sure not every mare is going to turn out to be a top producer. But that’s also true of mares who were very successful on the track. Look at Zenyatta, for example.

[Palm_Beach]

@PeteyPie

But I kind of marveled that I ended up with a daughter of Broad Brush.

Was she tough? I was galloping at the track when his progeny were training and racing and they were all pretty tough and gritty. I galloped more than a few, and they never did anything stupid, but they wanted to train hard. Every day. They were like little bay tanks.