Yup, forgot that Natalma is by Native Dancer and didn’t pick up on Native Partner, anything with “Native” pre Northern Dancer there’s a good chance it is by Native Dancer. We don’t look much past the 3-4th dam. Let alone 6th or more. Only Sport Horse breeders seem to care about that minute amount of blood. At least that one’s that talk about breeding. Not sure how much money is being put where their mouth is. No snark intended
He’s gorgeous.
Trained by an old family friend Billy Boniface and bred in the name of his family’s farm Bonita Farm. He trained Deputed Testimony among many other great Maryland horses. His owner Charles Oliver was a stalwart Maryland owner for many years.
You might enjoy looking at Arrogate’s pedigree with War Relic top and bottom. I read that both Arrogate and In Reality ran with their heads low.
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Glad to know that the Dynaformer/Roberto line has had this much influence each year just from the one stallion. Thank you for this info!
I missed Native Partner, too. And you’re preaching to the choir here. I have never understood the sport horse world’s infatuation with stuff that’s falling off the paper…
I regret not sending a mare to him when I was in Colorado! Saw many of his babies on the track at Arapahoe Park, but never saw him.
I enquired a lot of years ago, and his people were offering shipped semen for non JC mares (or TBs not seeking JC registery, presumably.) They’re also willing to breed TB sport mares.
I think he’s still standing, but certainly aging. Will be sad day when he’s pensioned or dies.
@PeteyPie - here’s a neat stallion. Broad Brush grandson, via his son Include, who was mentioned earlier by Laurie B. Only one cross to Northern Dancer which gets you Native Dancer far back.
http://www.northviewstallions.com/in…nd-sires/red-3
If you’re guilty of looking far back (I’ll admit I do that regularly for fun and out of curiosity), three crosses to Turn To.
https://www.pedigreequery.com/redeemed6
He would be very interesting for sporthorse breeding.
This has been a fun thread. Note: I still think avoiding Native Dancer, Mr. Prospector, and Seattle Slew is completely ridiculous (sorry OP). But it’s neat to see what’s out there.
That’s the cool thing about state/regional breeding programs: they preserve bloodlines that have been outcompeted in the national market. As racing struggles to reform, adapt, and survive, I do hope we can find a way to keep some of these “cheap” breeding programs afloat.
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He is big and beautiful with a lot of bone. He reminds me of my mare. He does have two crosses, one through Include/Illeria.
If we played the same game with only one cross of the popular stallions back four or five generations, it would really open up the pool of horses, both stallions and mares.
I have a super athletic big boned mare free of all 3 of those sires.
I am of two minds about about that. One one hand, I 've bred a fair number of Calbreds and the program has been good to me. OTOH, most programs incentivize quantity because the more runners, the more money that is possible later. I just scanned the CTBA sale results. There were way too many thousand dollar yearlings changing hands for me to think this is a healthy market.
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Some nice horses in her pedigree! Her pedigree is unusual (to me) because not only is she free of those sires but she also has no inbreeding in her first five generations. Most of the outcrosses I’ve looked at tend to have at least some inbreeding because there are so few lines left.
It looks like her dam, Red Royal, was a pretty tough cookie.
I think those three stallions are still important for sport… if they weren’t, they wouldn’t be showing up consistently in the top race horse pedigrees, and… consistently the top race horse families do produce some very, very nice sport horses.
The only stallion I would avoid of those three, would be too much Seattle Slew. At this point he should be at minimum a grandsire in most pedigrees, and I’d prefer to see him through AP Indy if he had to be in a pedigree. I would not line breed to him, not for athleticism concerns, but because at this point it’s fairly well established (in my eyes anyway, having seen it in his older offspring several times) that some of his progeny inherit the same cervical issues he struggled with during his stallion career.
Although I did not end up racing him, I bred A Fine Romance to race, and he has no Mr P, no ND, no Seattle Slew, and is 4x4 Nasrullah and 5x5 Princequillo, with Bold Bidder, Turn-to, Royal Charger etc, Gay Missile, Missy Baba etc,
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I’m of the same two minds. As your rightfully note, the way they are currently structured, they incentivize “cheap” quantity, and the horses are the ones who pay the price.
But then I look the amount of diversity in bloodlines the United States has been able to preserve. For example, the In Reality/Man 'O War sire line only exists today thanks to California and Florida.
Good point. It almost seems like there is a mean that the breed reaches even if the source material (genetics) isn’t the greatest. How else do you explain Cee’s Tizzy siring Tiznow or Lucky Pulpit coming up with California Chrome? How do you explain Unusual Heat or the breakout sire Grazen? SoCal racing is competitive with the winners in every division being among the best in the country. But Calbreds, even if they are by some forgettable ill bred Grade 3 winner and raised on a bunch of irrigated rocks, somehow hold their own. I would argue that the sport’s true Cinderella stories are coming out of the state programs. Otherwise I see a lot of breed to War Front and Tapit, sell for ridiculous sums and send to Chad Brown play books which I find hard to root for personally.
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I could make a credible case for all of those. I also happen to really like CC pedigree.
“I would argue that the sport’s true Cinderella stories are coming out of the state programs”
Sorry but this would be very difficult to make a “case for”. There is are reasons the majority of stallions that done’t make the cut to stand in KY. A lot of stallions in state programs started in KY. “Cinderella stories” are fun and good PR. But the odd horse like CC doesn’t make a stallion. John Henry certainly didn’t do much for Ole Bob Bowers. Nor did Cigar for Place Music.
Yes those three stallions are important for every discipline in which Thoroughbreds participate, especially racing. I don’t think many would disagree that they and their lines are THE most important influence on race horses. Isn’t Northern Dancer in something like 95% of all living Thoroughbreds? Their greatness is not the point though, and I am certainly not saying they should not be used, I’m not saying that at all. I just started this thread to discuss the importance of other lines, rather than relying on the three most common influences in Thoroughbreds.
I am also curious to hear if any race horse breeders use outcrossing as a deciding factor when it comes time to select a mare or stallion for their programs, and if they are looking to develop any horses free of the three sire lines. So far, it sounds like it is not a factor, at least not with Gumtree, Texarkana or LaurieB.
Not a factor for me either–and I’ve bred a colt by Include.
Why would I select against proven racing ability? Why would any racing breeder?
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