Thought experiment - boarders....would you pay by the service?

[Simkie]

You seem very resistant to the multitude of people who have provided feedback in this thread that itemized billing isn’t desired and doesn’t sound like it will address the problems you perceive.

Note that this here:

@Snowdenfarm

Some barns do itemize.

Has ZERO daily tasks. It’s monthly. There’s no “Dobbin was only out 2 hours due to rain so you get a credit on your turnout hours, but I had to clean the stall twice that day, so here’s a bill for that.” It’s a turnout schedule, a feeding plan, and a bedding plan. There’s nothing here to track daily across a barn full of horses. The closest thing to what you’re proposing is a charge for one off bags of bedding.

This is not the model you’ve proposed.

[Alterration]

@Simkie

Has ZERO daily tasks. It’s monthly. There’s no “Dobbin was only out 2 hours due to rain so you get a credit on your turnout hours, but I had to clean the stall twice that day, so here’s a bill for that.” It’s a turnout schedule, a feeding plan, and a bedding plan. There’s nothing here to track daily across a barn full of horses. The closest thing to what you’re proposing is a charge for one off bags of bedding.

This is not the model you’ve proposed.

So the problem is that I said daily and not monthly? It’s the same thing - they also have extra bags of shavings costs, ring costs, and 3x/week, 4x/week etc turnout…that’s the same exact thing. Just perhaps communicated a little differently.

Again what I was proposing was that the barn owner and horse owner work together to create a plan based on the offerings. If it needed to flex because of the horse needs or the horse owner preferences, then it could be adjusted and charged based on the daily rate, which would look like a pro-ration.

The daily, per lb etc. is really just for calculation purposes.

I was not suggesting that the horse owner change it every day like ordering it at McDonalds…I could never imagine any horse owner doing that LOL

[dags]

The industry-wide problem is less that board hasn’t kept up with inflation, it’s that wages haven’t kept up with inflation. “We” cannot fix that.

Barns running “more like a business” simply means they charge enough that they are not running into the red each month. If the local community can’t afford what it actually costs to keep a horse then again, “we” cannot fix that.

Education can be encouraged in any number of ways. Just put a chart on the wall and track hay, shavings, grain, insurance, etc costs over time. One never-ending upslope should get the point across, without any of the tedium.

We all get it. What’s happening to the industry is terrifying. A lot of us are watching with real fear about how we will sustain our livelihoods. But this was a choice society made as we privatized health care, prioritized capital growth at any cost, and disconnected wages from inflation. Sadly, no amount of a la carte-ing the horse care experience is going to fix that.

[Simkie]

@Alterration

So the problem is that I said daily and not monthly? It’s the same thing - they also have extra bags of shavings costs, ring costs, and 3x/week, 4x/week etc turnout…that’s the same exact thing. Just perhaps communicated a little differently.

You think that the boarder paying for a specific number of hours of turnout per day and requiring a credit/debit if that number of hours is not achieved in a day is the “exact same thing” as offering a turnout plan that states how many days of turnout per week?

There is a vast economy of scale issue between the two.

As a boarder–the perspective you requested here–I have zero interest in day by day billing. The very thought is exhausting. I don’t want to keep track of which days it rained and my horse came in early, so I get a credit, but then the stall had to be cleaned twice, so I get a debit. But if that’s what’s billed, then I will track it, and I will hold the barn to it.

This is what you’ve been proposing.

[anonevent]

My horse is in full training and part of what I like about that is that I’m paying a higher amount for everything to be taken care of, rather than being nickle and dimed. Deciding to pay an extra $2 or whatever if my horse needs a blanket, or paying an hourly fee for turnout would annoy me.

I’m conscious of not driving up the trainer/barn owners expenses or wasting their time too. I buy my own alfalfa and feed (my horse’s feed is a different brand than what the barn stocks), I provide syringes and needles if I ask for something to be injected. If I’m around a couple hours before turnout, I get him dressed myself instead of leaving it for the staff to do that.

One thing I would happily pay extra for is blanket laundry.

I know you said to not consider the bookkeeping aspect, but also think of the budgeting problem. If you know that 20 horses need to be blanketed and unblanketed a day, you’ll budget for more staff hours than if all owners are doing that. If someone pays for one hour of turnout, you have to have staff tracking that and running out to grab the horse after an hour.

[Alterration]

@Simkie

You think that the boarder paying for a specific number of hours of turnout per day and requiring a credit/debit if that number of hours is not achieved in a day is the “exact same thing” as offering a turnout plan that states how many days of turnout per week?

There is a vast economy of scale issue between the two.

Nah - not really, but I’m in tech as a day job. So these are really easy solutions for me.

@Simkie

As a boarder–the perspective you requested here–I have zero interest in day by day billing. The very thought is exhausting. I don’t want to keep track of which days it rained and my horse came in early, so I get a credit, but then the stall had to be cleaned twice, so I get a debit. But if that’s what’s billed, then I will track it, and I will hold the barn to it.

I see - so your problem is that you don’t want to do the effort of making sure the barn did what they said they did. So it’s better for them to just not do it? Or for it to be invisible? That’s an interesting perspective. Appreciated.

[Alterration]

[quote=“dags, post:83, topic:799252, full:true”]
The industry-wide problem is less that board hasn’t kept up with inflation, it’s that wages haven’t kept up with inflation. “We” cannot fix that.[/quote]

I think that’s only one problem. Board even as a percentage of wages, has not kept up.

[quote=“dags, post:83, topic:799252”]
Barns running “more like a business” simply means they charge enough that they are not running into the red each month. If the local community can’t afford what it actually costs to keep a horse then again, “we” cannot fix that.[/quote]

I also don’t think this is the problem. I’ve seen many owners complain about costs of their old horses and then go on vacation or talk about remodeling their second home.

[quote=“dags, post:83, topic:799252”]
Education can be encouraged in any number of ways. Just put a chart on the wall and track hay, shavings, grain, insurance, etc costs over time. One never-ending upslope should get the point across, without any of the tedium.[/quote]

Oh lord, I couldn’t get people to read normal messages on the wall LOL

[quote=“dags, post:83, topic:799252”]
We all get it. What’s happening to the industry is terrifying. A lot of us are watching with real fear about how we will sustain our livelihoods. But this was a choice society made as we privatized health care, prioritized capital growth at any cost, and disconnected wages from inflation. Sadly, no amount of a la carte-ing the horse care experience is going to fix that.[/quote]

I can’t fix the rest of society. But I can think of innovative business models because that’s what disruption does to an industry. For reference, I’m in tech as a day job. That’s what we do. We disrupt things. So I’m used to thinking differently.

And sorry - I don’t know why the quoting doesn’t work right. Tech I’d love to figure out!

[anonevent]

I’ve asked multiple barn owners in my area why they can’t simply charge enough to turn a profit. They say that they cannot find boarders if they charge more than similar barns in the area. They’re all within a hundred dollars or so of each other. They say that if they tell people a higher rate, the prospective boarder says “OK thank you.” and they’re never heard from again.

Unless boarding facilities in a local market band together and universally decide on a price increase, they feel trapped by each other’s prices.

[Jarpur]

@Alterration

Seemed unfair for the 14h air fern’s owner to help to subsidize the super senior.

This is the situation in which I always found myself, for decades, including when one of mine was a senior (I boarded multiple horses for much of the time). My easy care, non-destructive, amenable, never any problem whatsoever horses subsidized everyone else. Whenever I moved to a new barn, after two or three weeks, the BO would be falling on my neck, telling me how wonderful my horse(s) were, and what a pleasure to deal with.*

I actually preferred the partial self-care situations, where board included dry stall, hay twice per day, all day or night turnout, water buckets filled, and my feed/supplements fed twice per day (set up in advance by me), while I bought my own bedding, feed(s), supplements, etc., and cleaned my horses’ stalls (a service that was available a la carte, as were a few other services).

But, my bill didn’t fluctuate much month to month, unless I was traveling for an extended length of time and required stall cleaning (which I eventually began paying another boarder, who was also my house/pet sitter, to do when I was gone). The BO did charge everyone a slight amount during summer months for fan usage (it was non-optional), for instance. and there was a hay surcharge during a drought (barn produced its own hay). Over the years, the basic rate did increase, of course.

ETA that we boarders were kept in the loop – told when upgrades to the barn were to be done, for example, and boarders helped pick up hay out of the fields, voluntarily swept the aisle, filled buckets and water troughs, etc., even though it wasn’t a co-op situation.

*I’ve never owned a high-maintenance or difficult horse.

[silver_charm]

I am in an area that underwent a huge cost of living spike during COVID. I went from being a potential border to being completely outpriced. But that’s because I do have expectations for the level of horse care that I want - the midrange barn disappeared from my area and I totally understand why. The only places left are either DIY or cheap ‘full care’ with questionable support. Or >800/month for what I consider the minimum requirements. I pay that for a half lease + lessons at my barn, which is managed by someone with years of experience and goes above and beyond for all her horses.

I feel like if you have a minimum requirement for food, turnout, etc, you’re already skewing your clients to those who are on board with that level of care. And if you’re going to kick out those who complain when you say Dobbin needs more feed or shavings, you’re again selecting those who are willing to pay for better care. In that case it’s not that itemization is going to change any minds, unless boarders are seriously out of touch with current prices. In that case just an explanation of the cost of hay/shavings/labor for the year seems like it would be sufficient to educate those people and get them on board. If that doesn’t change anyone’s mind, itemization doesn’t seem like it would, either. To me, itemization suggests you can remove things, vs having a base fee with potential additions.

It’s all a wash for me, as I’d love to pay for the care I want, but having something itemized wouldn’t make it any more affordable.

[FjordBCRF]

@Alterration

Again what I was proposing was that the barn owner and horse owner work together to create a plan based on the offerings.

This was basically what we did in the co-op barn. Going into winter, each horse owner had different turnout/weather/blanket preferences/tolerances and since we ALL wanted to be accommodated, we just put together a weather/temp/blanket/turnout matrix that was on each horses stall and in google sheets. For those boarders that didn’t want their horses out if it was 30 degrees and over a 50% chance of rain, they stayed in and the owner was thrilled. The crappy mornings I only had to turn half the horses out wasn’t bad either. Worse for the stall cleaner, but more than half the barn did their own stalls anyway.

Its sounds like a pain, but it didn’t take long to sort out and ended up working well. It was low tech too.

[Simkie]

@Alterration

I see - so your problem is that you don’t want to do the effort of making sure the barn did what they said they did. So it’s better for them to just not do it? Or for it to be invisible? That’s an interesting perspective. Appreciated.

As I have repeatedly said:

Set a base amount that covers the day to day aspects of care.

Set a la carte amounts for one offs and seasonal items.

Of course errors will be made in daily billing. And in the end it just doesn’t matter to me if Dobbin comes in early and needs a second stall cleaning–set the base rate that covers that because it’s part of the expected flow of things.

@Alterration

And sorry - I don’t know why the quoting doesn’t work right. Tech I’d love to figure out!

Your [ / quote ] needs a hard return directly in front of it. It can’t share a line with other text.

[Alterration]

@Jarpur

I actually preferred the partial self-care situations, where board included dry stall, hay twice per day, all day or night turnout, water buckets filled, and my feed/supplements fed twice per day (set up in advance by me), while I bought my own bedding, feed(s), supplements, etc., and cleaned my horses’ stalls (a service that was available a la carte, as were a few other services).

But, my bill didn’t fluctuate much month to month, unless I was traveling for an extended length of time and required stall cleaning (which I eventually began paying another boarder, who was also my house/pet sitter, to do when I was gone). The BO did charge everyone a slight amount during summer months for fan usage (it was non-optional), for instance. and there was a hay surcharge during a drought (barn produced its own hay). Over the years, the basic rate did increase, of course.

This is useful, thank you. Yes - that’s mostly what I was proposing (although clearly I didn’t articiulate it well) with the exception of sourcing the feed/hay/bedding. I had considered partial self-care and self-provision of feed in the past but I was always worried about having to pester an owner for supplies or storage issues.

I was really sort of theorizing a “designed” solution. And I broke it down that far so that you could really get granular with what you wanted. To be fair, the TO/Stall Cleaning may have gone a bit far since you still have to pick paddocks, but it was just musing, not a fully fleshed out idea.

I am in tech, so the actual tracking wouldn’t be that hard. One idea I had (musing) was to use QR codes or a scanner on the supplies/turnouts and stall/halter. Easy enough to use your phone to take a picture when supplies are used if you wanted to get to that level. But that was more just musing about solutions.

[Alterration]

@Simkie

Your [ / quote ] needs a hard return directly in front of it. It can’t share a line with other text.

Thank you!!! Man, that has been my bugaboo with the new board format!

[sascha]

@Alterration

Barns typically do business more like agriculture and less like businesses.

I don’t understand this. Please explain.

[Alterration]

@sascha

I don’t understand this. Please explain.

Sure.

So small ag (not big ag) has historically charged poorly and based on what they “think people will pay” or “what I would pay if I did x” vs. what the market will actually bear. I grew up with these farmers. Some of the problem was subsidies, some with cheap labor, but some with simply perception and a difference in values - “I grew up when milk was $1/gallon and I can’t imagine it being $3/gallon”. So the farms raise prices but they do it slowly because they give a sh*t about their consumers, and they have heart and slowly they die or go out of existence. Their kids don’t want any part of it, and developers come in with big $$. Sure, they’ll keep track of costs but they worry about them, and feel each thing very deeply because they love their animals, their lifestyle and the people they serve. There’s a lot of heart in small farms, and many many of the boarding facilities we’ve lost fall into this bucket.

Businesses don’t run that way, even if they say they do. If costs raise, they are adjusted asap and passed to the consumer. If the consumer demands improvement in the services or facilities, they raise prices immediately. If you can’t afford it, too bad so sad. They track EVERYTHING, which is why the complaints about tracking crack me up. Hospitals know exactly how many minutes a nurse spends in your room. They know exactly the average cost per consumer but also what their high value consumers are vs. their low value consumers and they optimize around the high value consumer.

shrug

[dags]

@Alterration

I am in tech, so the actual tracking wouldn’t be that hard. One idea I had (musing) was to use QR codes or a scanner on the supplies/turnouts and stall/halter. Easy enough to use your phone to take a picture when supplies are used if you wanted to get to that level. But that was more just musing about solutions.

Scan a QR code and… then what? That data has to be stored and then pulled up on a front end somewhere, possibly with client access? Then auto-billed? This is an entirely new piece of software to be developed, at a cost that could probably fund a whole slew of barn upgrades if not a brand new arena.

@Alterration

I also don’t think this is the problem. I’ve seen many owners complain about costs of their old horses and then go on vacation or talk about remodeling their second home.

But that’s completely their right. When horses take up all of your discretionary income, you have to pick and choose. And honestly, horses - which typically appeal to one solitary person in a family - are going to have a very hard time competing with things that appeal to an entire family.

[Alterration]

@silver_charm

But that’s because I do have expectations for the level of horse care that I want - the midrange barn disappeared from my area and I totally understand why. The only places left are either DIY or cheap ‘full care’ with questionable support. Or >800/month for what I consider the minimum requirements. I pay that for a half lease + lessons at my barn, which is managed by someone with years of experience and goes above and beyond for all her horses.

This is what I see happening more and more. Maybe there’s a model here worth exploring.

@silver_charm

And if you’re going to kick out those who complain when you say Dobbin needs more feed or shavings, you’re again selecting those who are willing to pay for better care.

No - you’d simply say “this is the cost” - but it is visible vs invisible.

@silver_charm

It’s all a wash for me, as I’d love to pay for the care I want, but having something itemized wouldn’t make it any more affordable.

I’m sorry that you’re in this situation, but appreciate your thoughts! Thank you!

[Alterration]

@dags

Scan a QR code and… then what? That data has to be stored and then pulled up on a front end somewhere, possibly with client access? Then auto-billed? This is an entirely new piece of software to be developed, at a cost that could probably fund a whole slew of barn upgrades if not a brand new arena.

Eh, I’ve already built that twice in my career in different contexts. Not that hard and NOT the cost of a new arena. Have you priced one of those lately???

@dags

But that’s completely their right. When horses take up all of your discretionary income, you have to pick and choose. And honestly, horses - which typically appeal to one solitary person in a family - are going to have a very hard time competing with things that appeal to an entire family.

Of course it is - but you can’t say “they can’t afford it” and “they are going on vacation and having a second home” in the same breath. They can make choices, of course.

[Simkie]

@Alterration

They track EVERYTHING, which is why the complaints about tracking crack me up. Hospitals know exactly how many minutes a nurse spends in your room.

But they don’t BILL THE PATIENT for the number of minutes the nurse spends in the room. It rolls into the room rate.

And that tracking? Is enabled by a costly RFID platform.

Medical billing is also often riddled with errors.

But hey, a great example of why a similar implementation would be a poor idea in a boarding barn.