Thoughts on rocker shoes?

[Thoro]

I’m considering changing farriers, partly for a health related issue (mare injured lcl and needs therapeutic shoeing), partly for convenience, and to some extent just to try something different with her always crappy feet.

The potential new farrier took a look at her and said he would put her in rockers, due to her negative plantar angles behind, and they would help her “self correct” the angles. He said this would also help with the lcl injury, and she likely wouldn’t need the wider branch that the vet recommended. He also said he puts most of the horses he shoes in rockers - which is what gave me pause. I have never had a horse in them, or known anyone who used them, and from what I read they are generally used for navicular horses or really bad cases of long toe/underrun heel (which, admittedly, my mare does suffer from).
Why would a farrier put all horses in rockers? Wouldn’t they put more stress on soft tissues by the horse constantly shifting back and forth?

A disclaimer: I have contacted my vet about this and am waiting for a response, just looking for some other thoughts and opinions. Thanks.

[eclectic]

I had them on my mare at one point. I confess I didn’t take a good look at them or really clearly understand what they looked like. I was picturing what I think you’re describing, that there’s a downward curve between the toe and heel of the shoe.

When my horse started becoming more frequently lame (not limping per se, but exhibiting behaviors I thought might be down to foot soreness), I asked to have the shoes pulled & replaced with plain flat ones. What I was picturing then was that, if the shoe is formed the way I was thinking, it would mean there is less area upon which the horse can balance. She’d have to find that one low point of the shoe to walk on, or constantly be rocking. It seemed like it would be more therapeutic to have the most and widest flat area possible to land upon.

I’m sure I must have the wrong idea of what a rocker shoe looks like or feels like to the horse, so hopefully someone will chime in with better information.

(The reason for my farrier putting them on my horse was her diagnosis of mild beginnings of arthritis in coffin bone and even less in navicular. She was initially underrun in the back, and the fronts were uneven in their amounts of underrun. He said the rockers would give her the opportunity to rest on her heels when standing/grazing, thereby staying off the more sensitive coffin bone. Made perfect sense at the time).

[walkinthewalk]

My lameness vet had my foundered horse in rockers for two resets only. The purpose was to allow the horse to shift its weight without having to shift “heavily” shift from leg-to-to leg. I hope that makes sense.

He then put the horse in wedges. I don’t know the exact angle but they were minimal.

That all worked for 11 months but the shoes were aluminum and were further promoting WLD – something that became a constant battle after the horse foundered.

Then the horse stayed barefoot for 23 months. As of five weeks ago, he is now back in shoes with liquid hoof packing because his soles are thin.

My current farrier is AFA Certified and interned with Ric Redden when she first got out of farrier school 20 years ago. She keeps updated on new innovations.

My horse is currently in aluminum “Natural Balance” shoes; the model is “PLR Flat”. Their purpose is to change his break over and they have done a fantastic job in improving this horse’s movement. He is also packed with VetTec’s EquiThane CS, which has copper sulfate in it.

When the aluminum shoes wear out, the farrier is switching to the same shoe in steel to help reduce the WLD issue. Aluminum oxidizes, therefore can promote WLD over long term use:(

My point is the farrier you interviewed should NOT be trying to fit every horse into the same corrective shoe. Every hoof is different and that same hoof might possibly need something different over time.

Take a look at the Natural Balance line of shoes and more importantly, knowing what I know now, keep interviewing farrier’s, plus be thankful you have a pool of farrier’s. I am forum acquainted with several folks who have learned to trim because they don’t have any farrier’s nearby that are worth a pinch of ------ salt:)

Also, you might check around for a good lameness vet. No matter how good your vet might be, unless lameness is his specialty, your horse could be better served with a lameness vet telling the farrier what he/she needs to be using for shoes:)

[JB]

Rockers definitely have a place. I’m not quite sure how they will allow a NPA horse to “self correct” though, so that would have me asking a lot more questions.

I also am concerned that he puts them on most horses. At some point, they need the ability to dig in as they push off. The whole point of a rocker is to remove a lot of that resistance.

Now, is he talking about a true rocker shoe, or a shoe with a rocker-toe, like a Natural Balance shoe? That’s very different, but even then, they are not for most horses.

[Obsidian_Fire]

My mare has NPA in the hind also, and she is going to be shod in the “flip flops”, aka flapper pads. The farrier thinks that by floating her heels (???) in this manner she will be able to self correct. He thinks it will take about 6 mos.

She gets these on next week, and I will be posting pics then.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1445012672229142&id=338013949595692&_rdr

[Thoro]

@JB

Rockers definitely have a place. I’m not quite sure how they will allow a NPA horse to “self correct” though, so that would have me asking a lot more questions.

I also am concerned that he puts them on most horses. At some point, they need the ability to dig in as they push off. The whole point of a rocker is to remove a lot of that resistance.

Now, is he talking about a true rocker shoe, or a shoe with a rocker-toe, like a Natural Balance shoe? That’s very different, but even then, they are not for most horses.

He is talking about a full rocker, not just the toe. Almost all the horses he does at the barn are in them, and several are performance horses doing eventing, hunts, etc. The barn owner really swears by this guy for helping fix her horses that were lame, yet in the same breath said that if they are reshod even a bit late they will be lame again (3 weeks for one, 5 for the other). She was pushing me to try him even before the LCL injury, because my horse has lousy feet.

As far as the NPA goes - mare has bullnosed hinds (which have gotten worse since she had shoes put back on after last winter), almost always rests one hind leg up under herself, is very tight behind and very difficult for the farrier when her hinds get done. Potential farrier says this is due to NPA and the rocker will allow her to self adjust so she can be comfortable and realign the structures of the foot. He said her pain and discomfort during shoeing should be alleviated. My big ??? came when he said he’d put rockers on the front as well, and that they would stabilize the foot so she wouldn’t need the wider branch that the vet specifically said she wanted to see on her.

[Thoro]

@walkinthewalk This vet is not my usual one (he didn’t have an appointment open for weeks) but she is a good lameness vet. My other vet is actually a former farrier and known for being great with therapeutic shoeing, so I probably should have waited, except I thought she had a bone chip and not a soft tissue injury.

I’ll take a look at the Natural Balance. My horse has had reverse shoes, aluminum, glue-ons, and a bunch of different pads and wedges. Her feet have definitely improved since I got her but not to the extent I was hoping for. Still long toe, low heel, and bullnosed hinds.That’s why I’m thinking of switching farriers. As an aside, my current farrier is AFA certified but the potential new one is not. Don’t know how much that matters.

And yes, I am very lucky to live in southern New England. We are surrounded by vets and farriers - I just can’t figure out who is good or not

[Obsidian_Fire]

@Thoro

As far as the NPA goes - mare has bullnosed hinds (which have gotten worse since she had shoes put back on after last winter), almost always rests one hind leg up under herself, is very tight behind and very difficult for the farrier when her hinds get done. Potential farrier says this is due to NPA and the rocker will allow her to self adjust so she can be comfortable and realign the structures of the foot. He said her pain and discomfort during shoeing should be alleviated.

This is exactly what I have going on with my mare. One farrier I interviewed said rockers, one said wedges, and the guy I finally hired is doing the flapper pads.

I’d be interested in keeping up with your story on this.

[theresak]

My horse is in rockers on the front and a “2-plane trim” behind rather than full rocker shoes.

My farrier asked me to go to the vet school with her to have the vet school farriers do the rockers to help with several issues - an unstable quarter crack, poor quality wall in the heel, and low angles . He was in steel clogs before and my farrier wanted to get him out of those and try the rockers. He’s still in wedge pads up front with the rockers but just the 2-plane trim and steel shoes behind without wedges to correct very slightly low angles there.

For both the rockers and the 2-plane trim, I think the idea is that the horse’s hoof is no longer trimmed to a flat plane. The hard part is to get the the curve of the trim and the curve in the shoe in the correct place for the horse’s bony column and breakover point. I think you have to make sure the farrier trims correctly for the rockers and doesn’t try to make a flat foot fit at curved shoes with pads, etc.

The clogs allowed for very free breakover laterally as well as longitudinally. The rockers don’t allow the same lateral flexibility but have the same longitudinal.

[JB]

Floating the heels on NPA horses can work, but that’s assuming the whole trim is properly addressed to start. I’ve been following a lot of NPA situations and none of them would have ever self-corrected just because of a special shoe.

Wedges can be useful short-term to get the HPA alignment correct, but it still takes time to grow a healthy foot, and that’s done with a combination of trimming and shoeing most of the time. I’ve seen a couple corrected while barefoot, but I’ve also seen some not make progress barefoot and finally did with appropriate shoeing. Whether the “failed” barefoot attempts would have worked with, say, some excellent body work I can’t say, but certainly there’s more to fixing these than simply the feet in many cases.

The farrier is at least right that all the tension and soreness is almost guaranteed to be directly related to the NPA. I would make sure you get some body work done on her while her feet are being fixed. A professional MT session, with you learning enough to work on her in between sessions, can do a lot of good, be cheaper, extend the time between the professional sessions, and help the feet such that at least they aren’t constantly being hindered by poor posture.

I am not at all comfortable with any farrier who uses full rockers on healthy horses, much less so often.

[Thoro]

@Obsidian Fire I will stay on top of updates. I’m also interested in how the flapper pads will work out for you.

[Nicki_s_Mom]

All my horses are in rocker shoes and have been for over ten years and I have no lameness issues. There are different degrees of rocker shoes and the mild ones have very little curve and no one even notices that my horses have them on. The shoes have done a great job in helping the heels grow on my OTTB. He came 2011 with the low heel and long toe and within a year he had a much better posture and heels. At 18 he is still competing very successfully at Training level eventing and did a three day last month. One of my other horses just has bad genetics with very flat feet. So these shoes along with wedges keep his bones aligned and prevent crushing of what little heel he has. He has been wearing the shoes for eight years and is showing Third level and schooling 4th after spending six years eventing at Novice. I got into these shoes (before these current horses) because my guy was lame due to ringbone because he had little to no heels. We (farrier at the time and I) tried wedges and other things, but nothing worked. I was very hesitant to try rocker shoes as I had heard bad things, but as a last resort I did and with these shoes that guy returned to eventing for another seven years until I lost him to colic at age 24. Initially he was in very extreme rockers, but eventually graduated to slight rockers. So I say give the shoes a try. I agree that body work by a good massage therapist is important as it will help break the tension so your girl be able to improve her posture. My farrier who uses only these shoes has worked with Ric Redden. Good luck.

[Thoro]

@Nicki’s Mom Can you send me the name of your farrier? Thanks.

[MsM]

I went through a lot of angst with my old horse and his lameness problems and crummy feet. Vet would come and say “take the toe back!” and farrier would claim it couldn’t go any further back. Several other directions also got lost in translation. I even tried an expensive farrier favored by the big show stable near me, but problems persisted. Vet pointed at farrier. Farrier pointed at vet.
What worked for me: I took the horse to the Big Clinic and got more diagnostics and specific recommendations. Then I got a vet willing to put his ego aside and work with the Big Clinic. I asked this vet which farrier he could work with and got a great recommendation. Problems improved tremendously! :yes:

[walkinthewalk]

Oh my goodness ---- both vets that have seen this horse think those hooves are ok??? My lameness vet’s face would turn literal purple if he saw those hooves in front him:(

You really do need a new farrier and not the one suggesting rockers if he thinks those hooves are a proper length. I would not be surprised if there is some coffin bone rotation from being left like that for so long, if this is the way the person who trims her, and the one suggesting rockers, think the hooves should look. They aren’t farriers.

I am sorry but those toes are horribly stretched, there’s a whole lot that needs chopped off of them, but not all at once:(

Who decided all that length was acceptable and that it should not be the first and foremost point of rehab?

I hope I don’t offend you as I truly believe you don’t realize what you are looking at. I agree with “MsM’s” comment to carry this horse to a big clinic where they can do x-rays, ultrasounds on the legs, and trim/shoe the horse according to those results.

Those hooves are going to need a handful of trims to put them back where they should be but once at that point, a lot of the horse’s issues may very well be eliminated:)

[Thoro]

Not offended at all. I really appreciate the input. I do know the toes are too long and the job isn’t good, which is why I want to switch farriers. I will say though I didn’t realize just how bad they are, just that I’m not happy with how there’s no improvement. To be fair the hinds are overdue at this point, but fronts are only at 3.5 weeks. Even after a trim they don’t look much better. Yes there’s been improvement since I got her, which farrier always comments on, but it’s been 1.5 years now, they still aren’t good.

I’m still waiting for vet to reply about the rockers. If I don’t hear from her maybe I’ll see if the other vet can come out and shoot xrays plus trim her. Is the AFA a good resource for finding a farrier?

[walkinthewalk]

@Thoro

I’m still waiting for vet to reply about the rockers. If I don’t hear from her maybe I’ll see if the other vet can come out and shoot xrays plus trim her. Is the AFA a good resource for finding a farrier?

Well, it’s supposed to be but there are AFA certified farrier’s who aren’t worth their weight in hoof nippers:(

When my horse first foundered, the vet approved the AFA farrier who had been recommended to me by someone else – this farrier was and still does get published in The American Farrier Journal.

On the third trim the farrier thought he knew more than the vet and took waaay too much heel in one strike. The result was TORN tendons on both front legs. That was the second time I saw the lameness vet’s face do a slow burn from his neck to his forehead, as he was looking at the ultrasounds.

The farrier I have now is AFA certified but she has a lot more humility about herself and possesses a boat load of gut instinct, along with talent. It was pure dumb luck that I stumbled across her website.

For now for your horse, I would have your other vet do x-Rays, then trim according to what the x-rays show, if that vet is good at trimming.

My lameness vet has a farrier who does the trimming & shoeing, and by golly if that farrier doesn’t trim to the exact millimeter the vet wants, there is heck to pay, lol. He learned to just tack shoes on until the next set of x-Rays when my horse first foundered, lollol. In the beginning the vet took at least three x-Rays of each hoof during a single reset.

Thankfully he cut me some big price breaks during the process because he cared more about the horse’s well-being:)

[bt1]

OH DEAR…definitely XRAY and go with whatever farrier the hopefully new vet recommends.

[JB]

Wow, there is so much wrong with those feet :eek: :no: I would bet a lot that her feet are at least partially responsible for her injury

And this:

This vet is not my usual one (he didn’t have an appointment open for weeks) but she is a good lameness vet.

Is this, the “good lameness vet” the one who had already seen the horse, and did not think anything of these feet? If so, that is not a good lameness vet, not unless “good” means they can tell when there are all sorts of weird lameness issues, but it definitely doesn’t include anyone who can’t tell that these feet are a major or whole source of the problem

Nothing can be determined re: shoeing until a competent trim is put on these feet and then see what’s what. They don’t NEED a rocker, but it’s possible that could help speed things up - can’t possibly know that at this point.

I would trust a random farrier off this list, before I’d trust a random AFA farrier. No guarantees still, but…
http://ehoofcarecom.ipage.com/support/search/farrier/elpomemlist.html

[joiedevie99]

Honestly, I’d put my foot down and turn things around. I’ve done it a few times, and the feet at issue were never this bad. Call the best sport horse/lameness vet you have access to. Ask if they have a therapeutic farrier on staff, or at least someone they work with regularly. Schedule a time for the vet and farrier and an x-ray machine to be in the same place at the same time (with the horse). Once things are moving in the right direction (probably a few shoeings), have that farrier set you up with someone to use going forward (assuming he/she can’t do it).