Thoughts on "The Traveling Horse Witch?"

[Scribbler]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

@meupatdoes

Another thing I would love to see is if Celeste surprised the attendees of her next clinic with running a 10 minute mile as an easy team building warmup.

Do you think a single person with actual mid 60’s scores at 4th level couldn’t pull that out? Like, ok, this is weird and unexpected but okey dokey then. For a jog we shall go.

Does she have any demonstrable competition record in dressage?

@LexInVA mentioned a few shows back in 2020, I think. But we’re they even in dressage? Or were they hunters or jumpers or Eventing?

I don’t have any demonstrable scores in recognized competition in recent years… but I am a 100% adult amateur… who would never dream of charging other adult amateurs for lessons and training, given my own lack of a record of accomplishment in recognized competition, my lack of certifications, and the fact that I haven’t schooled anything above 2nd level movements in recent years, or jumped anything over 3 feet in recent years. I’ve never gotten any instructor certification of any kind, although I did get my C-3 rating through old school pony club back in the day. At least that’s something…

Anyways… I find all these people who charge weirdly high rates for lessons, but have no real record themselves? They’re unethical. In Area II, a low level adult ammy can get a decent dressage or jumping lesson from a 3 star eventer for $100… or even less. In person. Why the heck is anyone paying this lady more than that for a zoom lesson, where they only walk? It’s absurd.

Wake up, people.

It’s not riding lessons per se. It’s rehab body work inhand.

[Alterration]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

There is no “majgikal” program that will make you achieve much “progress” if that is what you are doing. And what you are doing is not “dressage.” There is nothing wrong with having a relaxed plan for you and your horse… etc… trail riding and hacking and just loving your horse and only riding a little? That’s all awesome. Nothing wrong with any of that. But please realize that it’s silly to claim you are “rehabbing” or “retraining” or “working so hard to progress up the levels” or much of anything else along these lines, if you are a low level adult ammy who is only riding three days a week, and only occasionally taking walking lessons on your horse with some weird person who has no discernible record in recognized competition.

YESSSSS!!!

I mean - if you just want to ride your horse at a walk, do it. If you want to do groundwork, do it. But just…that’s what you’re doing.

And I’m deeply suspicious of “professionals” with no recognized competitions under their belt who ALSO are on the “competition is bad” bus. One near me (who follows TTHW) claims that she doesn’t want the judgement of the judges in her area because she doesn’t agree with their training philosophies. She claims to be a dressage trainer but she literally has ZERO recognized record. She also claims to have done hunters for years, but has ZERO recognized record. I can’t even find mention of shows of any sort.

This “professional” is also one that claims magical powers to change horses physically by endless walking groundwork. I don’t buy it.

@Scribbler

So these ammies start looking for answers in the discourses that make sense to them and that they use with humans. Psycho therapy and relational ideas, massage, very quiet groundwork that they can manage. Woo. Supplements.

It’s really hard to longe a stroppy horse when you don’t have the coordination to longe any horse effectively and safely so free liberty ground work starts to look really attractive.

A gal I taught a lesson to (I teach only what I am both certified and qualified to do thank you very much) the other day believed that if she made her horse (a very solid and steady QH type) uncomfortable in any way for any moment she was just going to buck her off. She was afraid to longe her any faster than a slow jog in case she cantered under saddle (which said rider was not ready for).

I won’t make fun of her fear because it was very valid, she’d had a bad accident and was really terrified, but I was amazed by the logic. She’s a major woo believer.

The woo is also this attractive notion to people who are already leaning very vegan. They get this notion that all traditional horse training is violent, and what they do is somehow better. And while there are things that historically have been done that aren’t very good, woo is not the answer.

Actual science? Now that’s a thing, and it’s a thing worth looking at.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Scribbler

It’s not riding lessons per se. It’s rehab body work inhand

So… $300 per hour for zoom lessons on rehab and bodywork… from someone with no certifications?

Do the horses have an actual injury that was diagnosed by an actual veterinarian that requires actual rehab?

Or are we talking about unfit horses, that might not have much formal training, that belong to low level adult amateurs… and instead of just taking lessons and getting fit, and riding more….

The owners are now claiming to be “rehabbing” their horses.

Cause that’s a thing too. I’m sorry. But it’s a thing. C’mon people. Stop it with this nonsense.

But back to this whole “oh she’s a body worker” thing.

Do any upper level professional riders use her to do body work on their horses? No?

There are quite a few really excellent dressage riders in Washington. I actually know a few.

Do ANY of them use the horse witch? No? There’s your sign.

I’ve used two different bodywork people in the last 6 years to do work on my horses. They both have worked on FEI horses for other riders who are pros. They also both have certifications. They have actually come out to the farm and worked on my horses… in person. And cost less than this witch lady. Who does it by zoom?

Amazing. What a grift.

[Scribbler]

Oh totally a grift. And she will run it MLM style until it stops grifting. Then move into some other field

What she likely offers is a space where people aren’t expected to do anything that scares them, like ride or longe or see their horse bomb around turnout. Munchausen’s Syndrome by Clinician allows all horses to be defined as damaged and in need of rehab. Indeed that’s a key thing in naturopathic medicine. You can go to a regular MD and have a checkup and get the all clear on tests and blood work and a cheery “you are looking great.” If the same person goes to a naturopath they will 100% be diagnosed with an imbalance and prescribed herbs. Because we are all I’ll and unbalanced in our unhealthy modern lives. We can’t possibly be “really well.”

Some people eat this up. For themselves and their horses

[LexInVA]

I recall that I only found 1-2 local Dressage shows she had ridden in, with a horse that was owned by her (as a barn worker?) employer and no relevant affiliations or experience beyond that level of industry work, not including whatever she’s been doing as her own employer.

[EventerAJ]

@Scribbler

Anyhow the fact is that a certain subset of folks, mostly women, get into horses without the fitness or athletic or proprioception to ride very well. They get into struggles with their horses and they turn to more familiar discourses about relationship and etc because that seems more achievable.

This is a good point, and I think why there is so much hype around every “new” invention of “natural” horsemanship training. What makes the Woo Factor even more enticing is that you can blame all the riding problems on “treatable physical causes” like overuse of the wrong muscle, horse’s bad posture, uneven feet, nuchal ligament rupture…etc… it’s never the RIDER’S fault. It’s never the RIDER’S lack of timing, coordination, skill, or strength. It’s an innate horse thing, that absolves the rider from the responsibility and --face it-- admission that they contribute to the horse’s issues. Wouldn’t you rather hear that your horse’s crookedness and unwillingness to go forward is a lifelong issue that happened before you got him-- it’s Birth Trauma! And you can be his savior to rehabilitate him from his lifetime of pain and suffering if you just buy this Kool Aid and join a facebook group.

But no, really…stop leaning to the left, let go of your right rein, Kick him with your inside leg, and RIDE FORWARD and you might get somewhere. It’s not your horse that’s universally out of balance, it’s YOU. But again, people would much rather pay to hear that they are Not the problem, and instead here’s a Majical Solution for $299+tax and you will become socially superior to the “violent” traditional methods.

As an aside, anybody remember the famous poster Pocket Trainer from years ago?

Edited to add-- FOUND IT: Dear Pocket Trainer:

[Alterration]

@EventerAJ

What makes the Woo Factor even more enticing is that you can blame all the riding problems on “treatable physical causes” like overuse of the wrong muscle, horse’s bad posture, uneven feet, nuchal ligament rupture…etc… it’s never the RIDER’S fault. It’s never the RIDER’S lack of timing, coordination, skill, or strength. It’s an innate horse thing, that absolves the rider from the responsibility and --face it-- admission that they contribute to the horse’s issues.

OMG.

This makes SO. MUCH. SENSE.

[Scribbler]

@Alterration

@EventerAJ

What makes the Woo Factor even more enticing is that you can blame all the riding problems on “treatable physical causes” like overuse of the wrong muscle, horse’s bad posture, uneven feet, nuchal ligament rupture…etc… it’s never the RIDER’S fault. It’s never the RIDER’S lack of timing, coordination, skill, or strength. It’s an innate horse thing, that absolves the rider from the responsibility and --face it-- admission that they contribute to the horse’s issues.

OMG.

This makes SO. MUCH. SENSE.

These people also in their own lives will often prioritize woo over proper fitness exercise and over proper balanced diets. They may be drawn to “subclinical” diagnosis of the latest fad disease.

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@EventerAJ

This is a good point, and I think why there is so much hype around every “new” invention of “natural” horsemanship training. What makes the Woo Factor even more enticing is that you can blame all the riding problems on “treatable physical causes” like overuse of the wrong muscle, horse’s bad posture, uneven feet, nuchal ligament rupture…etc… it’s never the RIDER’S fault. It’s never the RIDER’S lack of timing, coordination, skill, or strength. It’s an innate horse thing, that absolves the rider from the responsibility and --face it-- admission that they contribute to the horse’s issues. Wouldn’t you rather hear that your horse’s crookedness and unwillingness to go forward is a lifelong issue that happened before you got him-- it’s Birth Trauma! And you can be his savior to rehabilitate him from his lifetime of pain and suffering if you just buy this Kool Aid and join a facebook group.

But no, really…stop leaning to the left, let go of your right rein, Kick him with your inside leg, and RIDE FORWARD and you might get somewhere. It’s not your horse that’s universally out of balance, it’s YOU. But again, people would much rather pay to hear that they are Not the problem, and instead here’s a Majical Solution for $299+tax and you will become socially superior to the “violent” traditional methods.

As an aside, anybody remember the famous poster Pocket Trainer from years ago?

Edited to add-- FOUND IT: Dear Pocket Trainer:

OMG… that Pocket Trainer thread.

As for the rest of it… I still just cannot comprehend this weird trend of adult amateurs who embrace woo like this. Did nobody else ever learn the old axiom “A horse is only as good as the rider” ? Just own it if you are struggling. Find a good trainer, and then start working at things.

[Alterration]

Short story - it’s been bothering me as to why the “woo believer” that I know would fall for this.

Woo believer is overconfident in her abilities. Way overconfident. When tested by a schoolie at the mounting block, woo believer failed and blamed the schoolie.

Woo believer now has a dog that will likely be put down soon because of training issues. Woo believer has done everything except actually train the dog in a competent way.

Woo believer’s horse is an unmanageable mess. Woo believer has only ridden the horse at walk, with the occasional trot, for a year. Woo believer will not canter the horse under saddle nor on the longe.

I had been beside myself with frustration about this because the tales of woe and better than thou preaching on Facebook about training horses and dogs has been quite prolific from Woo believer. It is always always someone else’s fault, or the animal’s fault.

I just a hadn’t connected the “unable to do things” with the “woo”. But it, plus a tale of abuse or the terrible things that went before, does make sense as motivation for following this path.

Now that I understand I can better disengage.

[sascha]

@Virginia_Horse_Mom

I still just cannot comprehend this weird trend of adult amateurs who embrace woo like this.

If only there weren’t people shilling shit more people would either get on with learning or get out of the sport.

Then there are those who have decent knowledge and also find themselves in possession of problems that vets and trainers cannot fix. I am sure many of us have even just momentarily clung to that branch before falling out of the tree and giving ourselves a smarten it up talking to.

I have some sympathy for the victims. I have very little for the money grabbers like the travelling horse witch who know a good victim when they see one and are happy to cash in on them.

And then, yet another facet, a lot of being able to sell is truly believing in it. Some of these people probably believe a lot of the garbage they sell because they’ve convinced themselves it’s a real thing and they really are the best. If you tell yourself something often enough you’ll eventually believe it, not matter how earnest you were (or not) at the get go.

[Paint_Party]

The Dear Pocket Trainer thread brings back so many fun COTH memories. We had fun with that one!

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@Alterration

Woo believer is overconfident in her abilities. Way overconfident. When tested by a schoolie at the mounting block, woo believer failed and blamed the schoolie.

Again… the age old axiom applies about horses only being as good as their riders.

[Kduplantis]

@EventerAJ

This is a good point, and I think why there is so much hype around every “new” invention of “natural” horsemanship training. What makes the Woo Factor even more enticing is that you can blame all the riding problems on “treatable physical causes” like overuse of the wrong muscle, horse’s bad posture, uneven feet, nuchal ligament rupture…etc… it’s never the RIDER’S fault. It’s never the RIDER’S lack of timing, coordination, skill, or strength. It’s an innate horse thing, that absolves the rider from the responsibility and --face it-- admission that they contribute to the horse’s issues. Wouldn’t you rather hear that your horse’s crookedness and unwillingness to go forward is a lifelong issue that happened before you got him-- it’s Birth Trauma! And you can be his savior to rehabilitate him from his lifetime of pain and suffering if you just buy this Kool Aid and join a facebook group.

But no, really…stop leaning to the left, let go of your right rein, Kick him with your inside leg, and RIDE FORWARD and you might get somewhere. It’s not your horse that’s universally out of balance, it’s YOU. But again, people would much rather pay to hear that they are Not the problem, and instead here’s a Majical Solution for $299+tax and you will become socially superior to the “violent” traditional methods.

Very well said

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@sascha

And then, yet another facet, a lot of being able to sell is truly believing in it. Some of these people probably believe a lot of the garbage they sell because they’ve convinced themselves it’s a real thing and they really are the best. If you tell yourself something often enough you’ll eventually believe it, not matter how earnest you were (or not) at the get go.

I feel like some of the woo coaches might be buying into their own Instagram/Facebook images in a sort of delusional way…

The Stuart Smalley’s of the horse world.

[anon68314200]

I am curious who meets the definition of “woo” trainer.

Warwick Schiller?
Mustang Mandy ?

I still feel this is largely a ‘big fish/little fish’ issue. Any fish big enough can spout all the baloney they want. Put the same script in the mouth of a littler fish and folks will be suspicious.

Warwick Schiller loves his “woo.” Does he count as one of the illegitimate “woo” trainers ?

[Alterration]

I loved Warwick until he started to woo. I no longer love his new stuff.

[EventerAJ]

Warwick Schiller goes off in tangents that I may not follow (like the ice bath stuff), but I think a large part of his horse training program is sensible, and more importantly (in this specific discussion) FREELY available to the horse owning public. He has ways of monetizing his program of course, but there are dozens (hundreds?) of free videos on youtube explaining and demonstrating his methods. You can get a clear idea of what he offers, you can try it out yourself, and make your own judgment if you wish to pursue ($$) deeper into his program. If you don’t want to buy his KoolAid, you can still learn from him for free. I find his methods to make a lot of sense, and honestly stuff I’ve always used when working with horses, I just wasn’t particularly AWARE of what/why I was doing, and his concepts made me recognize and improve how I already did things.

Speaking from my own minimal experience…he’s in it to help horses, not purely to indoctrinate the masses with his Copyrighted Woo Flavor ™ and profit from it. I had a difficult horse with food aggression, and in a desperate whim I sent Warwick a message describing my issues. To my surprise, he responded-- asked specific follow up questions, gave advice and seemed genuinely interested in my horse’s problem. I am a nobody…not a regular follower, not a paying customer, just a random facebook stranger who had watched some of his Youtube videos some time ago… and yet he took time out of his day to help. His advice was reasonable, behavior-based, and I would not consider it “Woo worthy.” Does he offer some “woo” to his followers? Sure, I guess. But it is easy to dismiss what doesn’t apply to your sensibilities, and take the parts of his program that are useful to you, and he genuinely hopes that his work will help your horse in some way (whether or not you paid for it).

A complete ShamArtist woo trainer keeps their program behind a paywall, disparages any other method (“We Are The ONLY Way And The Light”) and operates under the All-Or-Nothing banner with KoolAid IV drips.

[Alterration]

@EventerAJ

A complete ShamArtist woo trainer keeps their program behind a paywall, disparages any other method (“We Are The ONLY Way And The Light”) and operates under the All-Or-Nothing banner with KoolAid IV drips

Ooh, or dissuades you from training with other trainers (local woo trainer is guilty of this).

[Virginia_Horse_Mom]

@anon68314200

I am curious who meets the definition of “woo” trainer.

Warwick Schiller?
Mustang Mandy ?

I still feel this is largely a ‘big fish/little fish’ issue. Any fish big enough can spout all the baloney they want. Put the same script in the mouth of a littler fish and folks will be suspicious.

Warwick Schiller loves his “woo.” Does he count as one of the illegitimate “woo” trainers ?

There is a big fish/little fish component when it comes to what baloney is tolerated. That’s fair.

I’ll leave Warwick Schiller out of that though -he’s not anyone I have really followed.

I’ll focus more on top tier dressage and jumping people.

The big fishes have to have a demonstrable competition record to speak of. Then been coaching successfully for awhile, in a conventional way, and have several examples of objectively successful students, and horses that have been trained and made it to the upper levels.

If someone has all of these bonafides, and also wants to pontificate about their pet “woo” topic of one variety or another when coaching or giving clinics or training horses…

Well…

I’m not going to knock them down for it. Nor do I consider people like that to be the same thing as some of the total charlatans. These people have made it to the top in an objective way, and they have the luxury of being eccentric. They still have considerable skills and value to offer in terms of training… woo or no woo… so… people can get all into it if they want to. Or steer clear and choose coaches who keep their focus very conventional.

But, when you are talking about a no name person, with no record of their own, no super successful students, but they seem charismatic, handle horses with some skill, and can ride alright… and then they declare themselves an expert who knows more than all the other trainers who DO actually have a serious record of achievement… and it’s all because of this special woo theory on horse health, horse behavior, nutrition, rider mechanics, etc etc… and then they want to charge top tier dollars to unsuspecting people?

That’s a problem. Total fraud. A sham-woo horse person.