Thoughts on "The Traveling Horse Witch?"

[eightpondfarm]

@Sticky_Situation

The Klassical programs inevitably attract a very specific population … timid amateurs that do a lot of studying of dressage but lack the athletic ability and bravery to progress in their riding, but who nonetheless are desperate to be considered “serious riders.

Gee…i’m not so sure. My coach teaches classic dressage (i think that’s what you mean by Klassical?). I am quite athletic. And i’m a serious equestrian. Horses are my life. I don’t care to show actually. Competition is not my happy-place. The journey, the process…of coming along with a horse however, is. We actually DID only work at the walk for pretty much the entire first year. My horses have learned lateral movements, serpentines, circles of varying sizes, turns on fore and hunches, shoulder-in, reverse…all at a walk. We work on body positioning …keeping those shoulders from popping out, keeping a nice curved midline when appropriate, keeping a straight body on lateral movements… all of that at a walk. Me learning what is expected and me learning to teach my mare… Installing all the cues i use to get what i’m looking for. I never have felt taken advantage of, or milked for money. Ever.

About that loose brachiocephalicus muscle… my coach continues to point out how my mare’s body is transforming through proper riding. And even though we don’t collect her up yet, she does feel for and want contact. And my coach keeps showing me how her bottom of the neck muscle is loose and wiggly and how curvy and solid the top of her neck is getting. How her butt is getting big and ‘oh…that topline!’ and shoulder. Must admit, i’m a little behind the loop on seeing any of that…my coach has to show me. I’m more of a ‘feeler’…i know how my mare feels to me/connects with me. Listens to me. For me, it’s all about our conversation. Because well, chances are nobody is ever gonna see all those wonderful things about her body (except my coach and me --when she shows it to me). But, from my coach’s perspective, that smooth, loose brachiocephalicus muscle is important.

[no.stirrups]

My interest in joining initially was to gain additional insight into developing the thoracic sling and proper posture in order to support my work as a saddle fitter. Specifically, to advise owners of horses who were not ready for a saddle (because their muscle development is so wrong) on the specific work that needed to be done to prepare their horses to carry a rider and develop their backs. The program does address ridden work, but most of the people I recommend it to need to be off their horse’s backs for a period of time due to incorrect work.
As I said earlier, my personal knowledge of biomechanics is quite strong, so I didn’t feel I needed it myself, and I’ve done no more than dabble with the exercises with my own horse to make sure I understand them. I have recommended the program to half a dozen or so people whose horses need it.
In my opinion, the BTMM moderators are not doing enough to clarify which horses will benefit from the program and allowing/supporting the misconception that all horses need to spend months doing the exercises in order to be healthy and correct. As @Feathered_Feet mentioned, some members are trying to make connections between posture and some completely unrelated topics which is also frustrating. That said, I stand by my earlier statement that the method itself is biomechanically solid and that lots of horses could benefit from it.
A significant number of other saddle fitters, bodyworkers, and farriers that I personally know and respect all also members. I take that as validation that they also see the value in the method. The weaknesses of the program are being addressed through additional materials added to the Guides. I would suggest that anyone considering joining focus on those and not pay much attention to the discussion unless they are trying to find an answer to a particular question.

[Lunabear1988]

Thank you!! That all makes sense.

[Training_Cupid]

I have stayed off this thread since it turned into something of a witch hunt (pun intended), but I’ll address this from my personal standpoint.

Unfortunately this has been a total lost year for us. My horse had a pasture accident and subsequent surgery. As he was almost complete with his rehab he’s had some hoof issues come up. So no, we have not really made any progress. But during the rehab we did a lot of walking which did allow me to conveniently implement some of Celeste’s work and I do think it’s been helpful. I am optimistic once my horse’s feet are properly dealt with we will eventually be in a more correct place then we were previously.

I’m not a member of the FB group (I’ve tried a few online programs in the past and never had enough time to really benefit). I’ve just done 2 live clinics with Celeste because she comes to my area periodically. For me the biggest benefit has been the hands on release work Celeste does, my horse always feels much freer through the shoulder afterwards. I do have a hard time following her explanations even in person, she is very detailed and my knowledge of anatomy and movement is remedial at best.

My coach did some 1 on 1s with Celeste and said it helped some of her horses. So my coach is now loosely implementing some of these principles. She doesn’t limit anyone to in hand or walk work only (though she’s always advocated that we should do some of this - she’s happy to show us some things to work on in between lessons.)

Celeste didn’t use the term “pillars” when I worked with her, so I’m not sure if/which pillars we worked on. As I said with my horse the shoulders is the biggest problem area, and Celeste’s massage, in hand, and ridden work mainly addressed that. Nothing really revolutionary, just helping me be more aware when I’m starting to lose his shoulder and how to straighten him. Also making my horse carry himself (don’t hold him up, let him fail and ask him to do it correctly). Nothing that a good dressage instructor wouldn’t know, but just explained a little differently which sometimes helps understand.

Dressage has been a giant struggle for me, it took me years (and still learning) correct contact. I was always afraid to take it up, then finally convinced myself it’s what I need to do and perhaps went a little too far the other way trying to hold my horse in place. Not my coach’s fault, I’m just an ammy that spent 25 years being pretty much self taught with a lot of bad habits and only able to do at best a weekly lesson. Sorry for the long winded explanation that is probably not that useful, I’m not very good at explaining things.

[Lunabear1988]

I thought it was useful! Thank you!

I’m sorry you felt it turned into witch hunt. That was not my intention although I can understand that some posters did veer that way. I can understand being a little skeptical just with the format especially with the Facebook group. It’s hard to get a feel for what it is right now so I really appreciate everyone’s perspectives in detail!

[Curly_Feather]

Same same! Jumping scares the crap out of me, but I have a jumping lesson every single week to make myself braver. It teaches you about rhythm and forward and disciplined reactions. It does wonders for my dressage work, nothing scares me in the dressage arena.

[hokie98]

I’ve read this post off and on because I too am a little interested/intrigued. I’ve been chatting about her off and on with my bodyworker. My bodyworker has a fellow friend/bodyworker than has been to one of her clinics. Their opinion is that she’s a marketing genius - nothing wrong at all with what she’s teaching, it’s just nothing novel…she’s packaged it well. I follow Celeste on FB, and I have to say, I find through social media she maybe be “a bit much” for my personality, but I’m still interested in what she’s doing.

For full disclosure, I guess I’m one of “those” riders…just a mere mortal amateur rider. I don’t have an FEI bound horse; I have a QH. I’m not even a dressage rider - I only own a jump saddle (I’m just here in this part of the forum for this post). But I am interested in classical dressage as a way to help my horse and my riding. I try to be an educated owner/rider, but I live in an area where we don’t seem to have access to good, basic CORRECT classical dressage focused on biomechanics. I’m just out here trying to do right by my horse, and learn how to be a better horseman/rider.

Celeste has held clinics about a hour from me, and the barn owner at one of her clinic sites is training to be one of her trainers. So I hauled to see her last week because I know my gelding braces too much through his body, and especially his brachiocephalicus…I just wanted to see what she has to say. We started working on some of the exercises. Just like Feathered_Feet mentioned, at least initially, it’s about turning off the brachiocephalicus. Heck, it won’t hurt anything, so I’m trying it. I’ve only been doing the exercises for a few days. When I walk him in hand, deactivating his brachiocephalicus, I do feel like he’s more relaxed…to the point I don’t have to remind him much to keep it deactivated. But again, we’re just starting this.

I’m not a subscriber to the Masterclass - I just got some in-person help. I agree with my bodyworker, it’s nothing novel. Some of the info I learned last week really is stuff western trainers do, but no one is good at explaining exactly WHY (and frankly, some of the more inexperienced/lower level trainers may not know themselves exactly WHY). As the barn owner/trainer and I were discussing, the goal/end game is the same as alot of these trainers out there now with online programs…Warwick Schiller, Tristan Tucker, et al. It’s about having a relax, connected horse that self carries because he’s balanced in mind and body. It’s just going about it a different way.

From what I can tell so far (which is backed up by some of the comments of those that are members of the MasterClass), it’s not for everyone, and you can get the same info from other sources. But for some of us, it’s another useful tool. Or maybe I’m just a sucker…

[millerra]

can someone help me w/ the anatomy.

The brachiocephalicus muscle - wanting it off… So it attaches at the top of the poll and then below the point of the shoulder. When it is engaged - what does that cause/feel like - nose pushing against the contact? Or is that big muscle under the neck that braces? What does it feel like/look like when it is soft (not contracted, aka relaxed)?

[yes - honest question] so thanks for honest answers.

[eightpondfarm]

[hokie98]

NOT an expert…but start looking at horses - in person and even photos posted on social media. A lot have a big muscle in that area (see diagram shared). Usually when that’s a big muscle, the neck muscles above it are under development. So the point of her exercise (and others postural work which may look different than her exercises) is to get them used to not using that muscle, enabling the ones above it, which are needed for self carriage, to start working. Ideally you want that nice smooth neck that arches.

As for what it looks like relaxed, I heard Celeste mentioned on an Equitopia webinar that you want that to be jello like…when they walk, you want that lower neck muscle spongy and jiggly.

[SusanO]

Isn’t that what Conrad Schumacher calls “the falling down neck”? Meaning the horse doesn’t brace with his lower neck and reaches out for the bit. And who did CS learn from? He said in one clinic I audited but I forget which ODG. So this is nothing new. Been discussed for generations.

A lot of people want to make their horse “round” by pulling in the neck and then because the horse isn’t really carrying himself correctly the lower neck muscle gets overused and over developed. I don’t see why you need some special guru to fix this. Just find somebody that really understands correct training.

[MapleBreeze]

Its the evil muscle and if its big and fat your horse can use it against for rearing, bolting, and bucking.
I wouldnt want to get on a horse with it on.
If you just poke a finger in it you can turn it off. Keep asking until it switches to top line muscles.
But then you move on and ask other questions like can your horse yield to the outside rein in hand…without bracing the neck?
Then you ask for the front legs and check the shoulders. Then you check the hind legs.
Then you ride and check all the parts again.
All with a soft neck.

Its not new. The before and after pictures on facebook are underwhelming because they are all in hand. You could take a pic like that just spending 5 minutes on the ground and poking the evil muscle and backing a horse a little until they drop their head down. #horsesalephoto101

Id love to see them riding and it used in action.

[hokie98]

It absolutely is not new, and from a FB post she made yesterday, she mentioned she’s not doing anything new. But if riders/owners don’t have access to the right instructors teaching this, then she provides instruction on an accessible (aka online) format. For example, I have quite a few friends whose horses are going around braced in that lower neck, taking lessons with “qualified” trainers, but none of the trainers address it, and the same riders have no idea it’s wrong.

If nothing else, I’d say she’s bring awareness to something that sounds like everyone agrees is not correct development. You can seek out what instruction you feel is best if you realize you have a problem.

[enjoytheride]

@MapleBreeze

Its the evil muscle and if its big and fat your horse can use it against for rearing, bolting, and bucking.
I wouldnt want to get on a horse with it on.
If you just poke a finger in it you can turn it off. Keep asking until it switches to top line muscles.
But then you move on and ask other questions like can your horse yield to the outside rein in hand…without bracing the neck?
Then you ask for the front legs and check the shoulders. Then you check the hind legs.
Then you ride and check all the parts again.
All with a soft neck.

Its not new. The before and after pictures on facebook are underwhelming because they are all in hand. You could take a pic like that just spending 5 minutes on the ground and poking the evil muscle and backing a horse a little until they drop their head down. #horsesalephoto101

Id love to see them riding and it used in action.

Wait. You can prevent rearing, bolting, and bucking by poking a muscle with your finger?

[MapleBreeze]

I dont mean that as a blanket statement but you definitly dont want them using that part of the neck against you.

[blue_heron]

How am I supposed to do that while I’m riding? I think the worst bucker/bolter/spooker I ever rode had the most correctly muscled neck I’ve ever seen. It was what was behind you I was worried about.

[MapleBreeze]

You combine it with the hind leg on the ground

[eightpondfarm]

one of the mustangs i’m bidding on maybe just naturally has learned to move with an engaged underneck muscle… from years of being a stud and trying to appear imposing i suppose. Now that i’m reading back on this thread, i wonder if it is going to be too hard to undo so many years of tightness. Here are a couple stills of that neck, and also a video of him moving. There’s still time for me to not purchase him… Anythought anyone?

02268547-1_20220823

[blue_heron]

Horses with lower set necks as many mustangs do are more likely to have a large bracheocephallis muscle. Also, in the first pic you posted, that muscle is clear but I would not call it engaged. I think that’s a good display of how getting a horse to use the hind end appropriately disengages the underneck. I don’t love this grey horse, but his larger underneck is not what is immediately turning me off of him.

[blue_heron]

You’ve lost me.